Limit beginner - missing the flop

scotsrule

Looking for some strategy tips
I am new to poker in general, but very new to playing limit ring games.
I currently play $.5 - $1 - which is within my bankroll.

Here is a typical hand where I am not 100% sure on what to do after the flop:
I have A :d: K :d: in MP
2 limpers ahead of me, I raise and button, blinds and previous limpers call.  I would call the table loose, passive for the most part
Flop is:
7 :d: j :h: 4 :
First player bets, second player calls I ?
Typically because I view the table as passive I raise, and in my mind I am trying to force the players behind me to fold - not sure if this is solid reasoning
I raise, button and small blind fold, BB calls original bettor calls and 2 player folds
So I have eliminated a few players with my raise but really I only have a backdoor flush draw and overcards right now
Turn:2 :c:
EP player checks, I ??
Most likely I would bet - again trying to bully and represent a big hand
BB raises and EP calls - I ??
In my mind I am done here, now I have an overcard draw only - in this game BB could have J3, 74 suited etc
I fold
River K :c:
EP checks, BB bets EP calls:
Showdown EP shows J6 for a pair of Jacks, BB shows JQ for a pair of Jacks higher kicker
So did I play this wrong, e.g. pot odds, my betting patterns etc.

Any comments would be appreciated
Thanks
Scots

BigChrisEl

I think the fold was good as when you raised after the bet/call in front of you on the flop and had 2 callers it was a sign that at least on of the two caught something. The only reason for you to call would be to chase and in a worse case scenario what if one of the players was sitting on KJ (which with the hands they had is quite possible) and the river would have cost you more money.

I think what you need to say to your self is "What happens when I raise, these guys call and I miss the turn?" Do you keep up the bluff and raise again hoping they will fold? (And what do you do if they re-raise you or just call?) Or do you just check it? (Which you did) Also you could have seen about doing a check/raise with the hope that they would fold.

Again you almost need to decide to your self what do you want to do with this hand. Checking on the turn to me means you were either going to fold to any bet (which you did) or try the risky check raise.

It just hurts to realize you folded the best hand (or what would have been the best hand)

compuease

Not sure if I am reading this right but you folded about a $14. pot for another $1? That's very nice pot odds when you are reasonably sure you will win if an A or K falls on the river. ie no flush or straight possible. If neither hit then your are done but you had 6 outs, true K,J would have you beat but then it would only cost you another $1. to find out. At this limit I wouldn't have been raising after the flop, only calling if pot odds and no flush or straight possible as yet.

RAM_Eh

If you have position on the rest of the players, check the turn. If your card hits, raise any bet that is not re raised.

14 - 1 is very good. 45 unseen cards, 6 reasonable outs. Odds are almost 2 to 1 Call.

ScoobyD

I'd say you played the hand quite well up until the turn.

Preflop: Obvious raise for value. There are now 12 small bets in pot.

Flop:  You're getting 14:1 when the action gets to you.  While it's possible your A and K are no good due to reverse domination (A7, KJ) they might be good.  So treat these as partial outs.  If you figure they're good maybe half the time you have 3 outs here.  The backdoor nut flush draw also strengthens your hand considerably. You can maybe count this as 1.5 outs.  And there is also a backdoor straight draw, which is worth a little. With 4.5 outs you need around 10 or 11:1 to call which you clearly have. But, I think a raise is far better since you might get a hand like A7 to fold for two bets behind you (making your ace outs good), as well you can potentially pick up the button and have the benefit of last to act (setting up a free turn card potentially).  Good raise, the button folds. With the callers the pot is now at 18 small bets (9 big bets).

Turn:  Checked to you, which is ideal.  You have no hand thus far, and you have no reason to believe your hand is best since there are relatively few draws on that board.  At least one of the bettors has to have a pair (the only other draws would be overcards, gutshots, or 65 for an OESD).  Take the free card here (after all that's really one of the reasons you would raise on the flop, getting a free turn card for 1/2 the price).
OK, being as you did bet and then get raised when it gets back to you you're getting 13:1.  IF both overcard outs are good, it's a call.  But with the check-raise and cold call on the turn, it would be easy to see at least 3 of your outs gone (KJ, AJ), or the possibility of drawing dead (vs. 2 pair or a set). With the 3 outs you need something like 14:1 to make the call correct, so it's close (assuming the implied odds of likely getting them to pay off a river bet, but I think the chances of drawing dead are to great and swing this to a fold.

River: Ugh, your card hits and BOTH of your overcards were live. Your opponents are donkeys.  You maneuvered them into thinking they could get tricky and check-raise you on the turn when you could have fooled them and taken the free card.  Tough one, but you avoid this mess if you take the free turn card.

ScoobyD

Crap, my math was bad, you ARE getting 14:1 on the turn. This is roughly what you'd need if you had 3 outs (which I would guess is the most likely situation). So I guess the question then becomes what are the chances of drawing dead vs. the chances of actually having 6 outs. Crap. SSHE has me confused, now I'm leaning closer to the line of "Make a mistake that costs you a bet before making a mistake that costs you a pot". Call. If you miss it's just one bet, but giving up on a pot this big if your outs are good is a major mistake.

BBC Z

Well played until the turn.

Check/call because you have no hand, theres no draws.. The original raiser has you beat and I doubt he's folding to you now.

Your overcard outs are worth about 1/2 to 2/3's of the the 6.. so the pots big enough to get to the river.

Fold the river unimproved.

ScottyZ

I favour just calling on the flop.

Raising with the goal of making the free card play is too fancy for low-limit, and your draw is not strong enough to raise for value.

Raising with the goal of forcing players out behind you shows a fundamental misunderstanding of low-limit poker. In fact, this is a good example of a raise that will be called by every hand that beats you (remember, it's low-limit) and "force out" every hand that doesn't beat you.

Why call on the flop? You probably have 6 live outs, and have two backdoor draws. The pot offers enough to call at this point assuming you only have a 3-outer, which I think is a good enough reason to take off a card.

If I had just called the flop, I would probably let the hand go on the turn after not improving and neither backdoor draw apprearing. As the hand actually went (flop was raised by the AK), I would have checked behind everyone and taken the free card.

Betting and then folding to a check-raise is a line of betting that might be an appropriate middle- or high-limit play, since some of your opponents at these levels may have the ability to lay down a pair of Jacks when you bet the turn. This will never happen in the next million years of low-limit holdem. Your bet on the turn (and in some sense your raise on the flop) simply feels too fancy for low-limit play. I can't see the turn bet accomplishing anything that a bet in poker is supposed to do.

Facing the check-raise on the turn as in the actual hand leaves you in a genuinely difficult spot. As some previous posters have mentioned, you are facing the classic enormous pot/thin draw dilemna. You have 6 outs at best. When you are check-raised on the turn (and an EP player1 flat calls the check-raise), it's very hard to imagine all 6 of your outs being good. Even so, you may still have 3 outs. You may have no outs. It's a close decision I think.

Your opponents are donkeys.

Perhaps one of them is. However, I thought that the BB played the hand better than a typical low-limit player would.

ScottyZ

1Who, if you have spent more than a few hands a the table, you should probably realize is a complete fool. It may not represent as big a threat as usual that he called the check-raise cold.

ScoobyD

Perhaps one of them is. However, I thought that the BB played the hand better than a typical low-limit player would.

True, I think I was referring more so to the cold caller with TPNK.

Raising with the goal of making the free card play is too fancy for low-limit, and your draw is not strong enough to raise for value.

I disagree (with the first part, not the second). I see a raise freeze up a passive player frequently in low limits on the flop (especially considering hero raised preflop). If the player was ultra aggressive, I might lean closer towards your line of flat calling the flop though. In this case I think the raiser believes he still had the best hand, but thus saw it as an opporunity to check-raise the flop raiser on the turn. Either way, hero gets the desired result of the free turn card.

stoneskn

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It is mandatory if you want to win money playing .5/1.00

Dave Scharf

I agree with Scotty. I favour calling on the flop. You probably do NOT have the best hand. Your primary goal should be to draw CHEAPLY if you are getting the odds to do so. You are; go cheap.

Dozah

I would fold on the flop.

Why chase when you know you're up against at least one made hand?

Why not wait for a better flop the next time you pick up Ace-King.
Don't get married to that hand.


Too many beginners make this mistake and in the long run i guarantee it'll cost you tons of money.

Flint Bones

I would fold on the flop.

Why chase when you know you're up against at least one made hand?

Because you aren't sure you're up against a made hand and you have outs. In my experience in limit a lot of people will bet a missed flop in hopes of taking it. The call is the right move.

scotsrule

Thanks for all of the feedback.
I am about halfway through SSHE right now, and I find it is helping me plug some gaps, especially my pre-flop play
I still have a lot of leaks in my Limit game, and my no limit game for that matter, but I have found that really slowing down, and trying to use a five finger checklist as Dave has discussed has really helped.
Thanks
Scots