TPTK: how would you protect your hand here?

stoneskn

I'll try to clean this up to be as legible as possible. It *really* bugs me when I have to read through this mess. Can somebody come up with some kind of "text converter" that makes this more legible? Like a little web program that makes it neat and clean?

On to the point . . .

I'm re-reading SSHE for the 4th time (5th???). And rediscovering "protecting your hand" and "betting for value on the river" (that's still a tuffy for me) This table was great, and I was getting great cards. I was dealt AK three times in a row, and won one (i think, or two) On this hand, I've got AK and raise it up. I think now I'm seen as a maniac, cause I'll raise in any position (duh! I'VE GOT AK) I've got a great flop, but can't find a darn way to protect my hand. Don't consider whether I lost, won, or tied. Just examine the play. All comments welcome.


boletus: posts small blind $0.02
tidbeck: posts big blind $0.05
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to stoneskin [A :d: K :c:]
DJV is old: folds
stoneskin: raises $0.05 to $0.10
madmama: folds
o]O2[o: calls $0.10
AleCaporn joins the table at seat #1
parissy: calls $0.10
pcallstarz68: calls $0.10
boletus: calls $0.08
tidbeck: folds
*** FLOP *** [K :d: 7 :d: J :h:]
boletus: checks
stoneskin: checks
o]O2[o: checks
parissy: bets $0.05
pcallstarz68: calls $0.05
boletus: calls $0.05
stoneskin: raises $0.05 to $0.10
o]O2[o: folds
parissy: calls $0.05
pcallstarz68: calls $0.05
boletus: calls $0.05
*** TURN *** [K :d: 7 :d: J :h:] [9 :c:]
boletus: checks
stoneskin: bets $0.10
parissy: calls $0.10
pcallstarz68: calls $0.10
boletus: calls $0.10
*** RIVER *** [K :d: 7 :d: J :h: 9 :c:] [9 :]
boletus: checks
stoneskin: bets $0.10 * SO I BET HERE "for value..." i should be ahead here more often than not. only T8 makes a straight and I have Kings and 9's with Ace kicker. J7 for two pair and K7 just got counterfeited (those hands would have probably raised the turn (not the flop; hoping to slow play me cause I appear to be a maniac...)*
parissy: calls $0.10
pcallstarz68: calls $0.10
boletus: raises $0.10 to $0.20
stoneskin: calls $0.10
parissy: folds
pcallstarz68: calls $0.10
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Board [K :d: 7 :d: J :h: 9 :c: 9 :]

Where did I fvck it up? What would you have done?

Jay845

The exact same thing....I don't see a fault with your play. Having said that, just because you play a hand correctly doesn't mean everyone else will. Favorites do not "always" hold up. Keep up the strong play.

Jay

PokerKai

If I remember correctly, SSHE advises that when you are unable to protect your hand, simply bet for value.

PREFLOP: Standard

FLOP: The only real decision of this hand IMO. My standard play is to lead the flop but if I have a maniac or "autobets his button" type player in late position, I will go for a checkraise. Without that sort of read, I think a lead is the best play.

TURN: Standard

RIVER: Standard value bet...standard call down.

ScoobyD

I agree with PokerKai on every street. I probably tend to lead that flop though, but a CR is good (particularly if it comes from LP).

I'm going to fathom a guess and say the winner had T9 for a double gutshot and backdoored trips. Of course I could be way off, since an aggressive player might make a hopeless bluff attempt on the scare card. At .05-.10 there could be a pretty wide range of hands out there...

magithighs

Yes there is a better way to post hand histories -- have a look at my request to Sloth http://www.pokerforum.ca/forum/index.php?topic=3329.0  or my initial request  http://www.pokerforum.ca/forum/index.php?topic=2913.0 .  Boy it would be nice to see hand histories in this format.

Onto the  hand.  You're out of position against a large field and  want to exert maximum pressure on the flop.  For most players especially in the low limits, the  only hand they can put you on is  AK.  My preference is to lead out and announce that you have AK (via the bet not the chat), hoping you have someone wants to test you and you can three bet. 

On the river, I prefer making value bets when I'm in position.  Against a large field, or even heads up I often check when I'm out of position, unless it's an extremely passive game.  The reason is that most often the person I beat will make the bet, and much worse hands will call, suspecting that  I don't have AK on the river.  I find I get more value from the semi-bluff holding bottom pair, and not getting  c/r.  Of course, I will do this with a strong  hand I've been betting all the way such as trips, or a straight that hit the river.  Then I get an extra bet with a c/r.

Cheers
Magi

ScottyZ

A key philosophical point: Low-limit poker isn't really about protecting your hands as much as it is about getting your opponents to put money into the pot with the worst hand.

I am most certainly not talking about things like slowplaying and sandbagging here. In reality, the most straightforward value betting possible (and as early on in the hand as possible) is almost always the way to get the most money into the pot in low-limit games.

Of course, most of the time, from a poker strategy perspective, making strong value bets is exactly the same thing as attempting to protect your hand. It is simply how your opponents generally react to your bets that gives rise to the two different concepts. If your opponents will hardly ever fold, betting is primarily used as a tool for generating value. If your opponents are capable of releasing medium strength or poor hands, then your bets may be a tool that can be used for protecting a hand.

Many low-limit players get frustrated, and may start coming up with dubious strategic approaches for low-limit when they begin to realize that it is extremely difficult to "protect a hand" in low-limit poker. You shouldn't fail to get value bets into the pot when you believe you have the best hand simply because you know your opponents will call you with anything and they will probably draw out on you anyway.

The way you played the hand is fine I think. I would typically just lead out with this hand on the flop since I was the pre-flop raiser. This play looks most natural to your opponents, and you give yourself a better chance to go 3 bets on the flop in case someone decides to raise you with a strong draw.

Returning to the philosophical theme again, the way you played the hand protects it just as much as any alternative betting line would (namely, in low-limit, it does not really protect your hand at all), but most alternative betting lines you might take would get less money into the pot when you probably have the best hand. This is what makes the betting pattern you chose (or the other sensible alternative of simply leading at the flop) the superior one.

ScottyZ

PokerKai

ScottyZ wrote:

Many low-limit players get frustrated, and may start coming up with dubious strategic approaches for low-limit when they begin to realize that it is extremely difficult to "protect a hand" in low-limit poker.

Returning to the philosophical theme again, the way you played the hand protects it just as much as any alternative betting line would (namely, in low-limit, it does not really protect your hand at all), but most alternative betting lines you might take would get less money into the pot when you probably have the best hand. This is what makes the betting pattern you chose (or the other sensible alternative of simply leading at the flop) the superior one.

ScottyZ

I recently had a similar conversation with a friend of mine who has fallen into this sort of FPS syndrome when dealing with his unprotectable hands. He raised AKs out of the blinds into a large field of limpers. He flopped an ace on a raggy board and checked just as our hero did in this board...it got checked through. When the turn came a blank, he checked again...and once again, it got checked through. I asked him why on earth he didnt lead the turn...his response was he couldnt protect his hand with a turn bet, so he was going to check raise and face as many people as possible with 2 bets. ...I complimented him on what a fine job he did in protecting his hand giving everybody infinite odds to call...

stoneskn

i had a good read on the flop better. he likes to bet when scare cards come. The flush draw did dissuade me from checking, but I wanted to attempt to get maximum bets in on the flop. Checking maybe have been regretable had it checked through. Darn passive players! Landing the checkraise was sweet though - as always.

ScottyZ

So... did you win the hand, or get tilted by A9o?

ScottyZ

stoneskn

7h9h
what a :fish:

BigChrisEl

stoneskn wrote:

7h9h
what a  :fish:

At .05/.1 I think that as soon as the guy caught the 7 on the flop plus a heart he wasn't folding no matter what.

I mean he started with 2 suited cards :fish:

ScoobyD

I actually don't think the guy played the hand THAT badly. Preflop, with all the cold callers in front of him, it's a hand that plays reasonably well multi-way. For one small bet on the flop with a pair and backdoor flush draw, I don't think the call is bad (although he should have considered the risk of the check-raise behind him, and for 2 bets, I don't think he should be calling). He improves to 2 pair on the turn, and fills on the river. If anything, he likely should have raised the turn to protect his hand. Classic example of how all the other loose calls gives a relatively weak hand better pot odds to call. Implicit collusion at it's best. Tough one. (FWIW, I'd have bet the river for value as well).

stoneskn

(FWIW, I'd have bet the river for value as well).

THANK YOU!