Learning Curve
I kind of feel like I'm spamming tonight with this being my third new thread. I want to see what the experts here feel as this has been a discussion among my friends for awhile with no firm answers.
Quite a few of them have started playing poker this summer (live and online), and majority of them are breaking even or are taking losses the first couple of months into their game with only 2 in the green. All of them have played poker for a couple of years (started after watching Moneymaker make money), and have played on a consistent basis on free-rolls, nickel-dime games at school, quarter games during holidays between friends etc etc. When I started online half a year ago, I was experiencing many swings as I was learning through experience, and studying my game (still needs to be done), but I was turning a 2bb-3bb/100 hand on a consistently basis. Recently I have experienced a dramatically decline in my winnings (consistent losing sessions as I read and try to apply what I learned), which might be a result of my downswing. Back to my friends, most of them feel losing in their first couple of months is normal as they're learning to adjust from the play-money game to real-money, as well as still learning things in the process. While there is a couple who feel that despite they're new players, they believe at bare minimum they should be breaking even, rather then having to reload every other week. Just wondering what was everyone's experience when they first go into playing for money, rather or not this "learning curve" existed for them, and if you believe their is one etc etc.
Quite a few of them have started playing poker this summer (live and online), and majority of them are breaking even or are taking losses the first couple of months into their game with only 2 in the green. All of them have played poker for a couple of years (started after watching Moneymaker make money), and have played on a consistent basis on free-rolls, nickel-dime games at school, quarter games during holidays between friends etc etc. When I started online half a year ago, I was experiencing many swings as I was learning through experience, and studying my game (still needs to be done), but I was turning a 2bb-3bb/100 hand on a consistently basis. Recently I have experienced a dramatically decline in my winnings (consistent losing sessions as I read and try to apply what I learned), which might be a result of my downswing. Back to my friends, most of them feel losing in their first couple of months is normal as they're learning to adjust from the play-money game to real-money, as well as still learning things in the process. While there is a couple who feel that despite they're new players, they believe at bare minimum they should be breaking even, rather then having to reload every other week. Just wondering what was everyone's experience when they first go into playing for money, rather or not this "learning curve" existed for them, and if you believe their is one etc etc.
Comments
I got killed playing low-limit poker when I first started out. I hadn't read enough about poker. Simple as that. If someone would have told me to read something like Lee Jones' or Dave Scharf's1 book, I might have saved a some serious dough during my formative poker years.
Beating the rake (aka "breaking even") at low-limit poker is a lot harder than most players think. Breaking even at low-limit poker in the long run is a sign that you're actually playing some competent poker, and is not what I'd expect from the majority of beginning players.
Not only is reading and studying poker important, but also re-reading material, and actively thinking about the ideas you are working on as you play and afterwards.
As an example, I recently read SSHE by MS&M, and then immediately afterwards, I felt like I had no clue how to play $2-$4 limit poker online. The new ideas were, at first, swimming around in my head with little direction or focus. However, improvement came when I started connecting actual hands I was playing to specific ideas I had learned (or, more accurately, was learning) from that book.
What's the point of all this, you may ask? Good question. One point is (I think) that learning poker is a gradual, and often difficult, process. Another is the (pretty much cliche) "We've all been there" deal.
Don't play with money you can't afford to lose, don't panic, and read (and think) a lot about poker.
ScottyZ
1Actually, Dave's book was not available at the time when I was a beginner. Ya dang slowpoke.
Unless you sample size was in the hundreds of thousands of hands, it's possible you are still a losing player and you experienced short term variance.
Something like 80% of poker players on party are longterm losers..
The sample size is 150K hands (would be around 200-250K if I started keeping track as soon as I started playing).
You've been playing online for 6 months and have played 150,000 hands of limit ring games? Get some sleep dude.
That included hands I've played live at friend's home game etc etc. Limit ring games I'm at around 100000 or slightly less. I usually 3-4 table at once, and average 2.5 - 3 hours a day, sometimes more since its summer the past two months, which is how I have logged that many hands.
You actually count the number of hands you're dealt in home games? Man. If only I could be that meticulous. I am with my online stats, but only because pokertracker makes it easy. As far as live, I'm very, very sloppy (if anyone has a surefire approach to a lazy person's approach to logging their live winnings I'd be all ears). I'm guessing I'd play no more than maybe 10 hrs per week on average, usually playing maybe 3 tables. Of course some of my time I end up playing SNGs, MTTs, Omaha H/L, etc. too so that would be part of the 10 hrs. I've been actually keeping track of my play for maybe 9 months via PT, and I think I'm only hovering around 40K hands thus far (in PT). I think if I was playing any more than I am right now, I'd probably start to hate the game and go insane. But I guess everyone has a different tolerance...
Do you really feel like you need to jump to 3 tables from 1...how bout just going to 2 until your comfortable.
And, just about everyone loses in the long run.
Only about 5% of winners are winners. Another 25% - ish are break even players.
These are facts.
Just about everyone claims to be breaking even at first.
And, just about everyone claims to be winning in the long run.
These are also facts.
Your friends are probably overestimating their skill and overestimating their win/loss record.
Everyone thinks they are an above average driver.