Missing Bets???

sweetjimmisweetjimmi
in Brags, Beats & Variance
Left out the limits because I'm interested in how you play it at any and/or levels.

I haven't been at the table for very long...maybe 2-3 orbits but noticed the table seemingly loose passive...your normal lower limit table but again I'm in interested in how you play any loose passive table here.  The limp preflop is probably a little weak but

PokerStars Game #2454750588:  Hold'em Limit - 2005/08/29 - 22:51:03 (ET)
Table 'Eumelos III' Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: sweetjimmi 
Seat 2: ezymuny
Seat 3: Waldow
Seat 4: mikep15539
Seat 5: DublinHouse
Seat 6: AndyH22
sweetjimmi: posts small blind
ezymuny: posts big blind
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to sweetjimmi [9c 8s] 
Waldow: folds
mikep15539: folds
DublinHouse: folds
AndyH22: calls
sweetjimmi: calls again probably weak here???
ezymuny: checks
*** FLOP *** [Th 5c 7h]
sweetjimmi: bets
ezymuny: calls
AndyH22: raises
sweetjimmi: calls Seemed obvious at the time...any one raising here?
ezymuny: calls
*** TURN *** [Th 5c 7h] [Js]  Pretty straight forward here.
sweetjimmi: bets
ezymuny: raises
AndyH22: raises
sweetjimmi: raises
Betting is capped
ezymuny: calls
AndyH22: calls
*** RIVER *** [Th 5c 7h Js] [Kh]
sweetjimmi: checks The last heart scares me.  Should it?  I checked with the intension of calling
ezymuny: bets
AndyH22: calls
sweetjimmi: calls
*** SHOW DOWN ***
ezymuny: shows [Jd 5s] (two pair, Jacks and Fives)
AndyH22: mucks hand
sweetjimmi: shows [9c 8s] (a straight, Seven to Jack)
*** SUMMARY ***
Board [Th 5c 7h Js Kh]
Seat 1: sweetjimmi (small blind) showed [9c 8s] and won with a straight, Seven to Jack
Seat 2: ezymuny (big blind) showed [Jd 5s] and lost with two pair, Jacks and Fives
Seat 3: Waldow folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: mikep15539 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: DublinHouse folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: AndyH22 (button) mucked [Qs Qd]

Comments

  • ScoobyDScoobyD
    My take:

    Preflop:
    I don't like the limp in the SB. I probably would if it's suited though. I guess it might be marginally profitable if you feel like your opponents are poor players post-flop.

    Flop: I lead at that flop as well. When you get raised I don't think you can really 3 bet for value with only 2 opponents, and if the caller has a weak hand you don't really want to lose him either, I think calling the raise is how I'd play it as well.

    Turn: Bingo! Not only did you hit the nut straight, you managed to avoid hitting it while hitting the flush. I jam here as you do, worried about the potential flush draw. Oddly,both your opponents raise on that card and if you think they are indeed passive it's not how I'd expect someone passive with a flush draw to play it. I think I'd be more inclined to think 2 pair or a potential set. I'd be wary of the board pairing.

    River: Crap. The flush card hit. That being said, I think I still might be inclined to lead at it and be inclined to call a raise due to the odd turn action. (this is much easier to say having looked at the hand while not playing it). If however I had pegged the players as aggressive types that would push a semi-bluff flush draw, I'd be more inclined to check-call the river.
  • UnknownUnknown
    I think you played every street fine, except for maybe the river.  While I don't hate check/calling when the flush card hits, I'm with ScoobyD: betting and calling a raise is probably better than checking. 

    If you look at all of your opponent's action on every street (except preflop of course), NOBODY was just calling the whole time.  ezymuny plays the flop like a flush draw, but that goes out the window on the turn.  AndyH22 is definitely not on a flush draw. 

    So, if you have time during the heat of battle to process this, you'll realize that if you bet, you're likely to get called in two spots by hands that you beat, as opposed to risking it getting checked all the way around. 

    BTW, I'm guessing that it was a $2/$4 game.  Just a wild guess.  ;)
  • sweetjimmisweetjimmi
    BTW, I'm guessing that it was a $2/$4 game.  Just a wild guess.

    LoL.  Nice...did you take the time to look up the table number?  I have been playing at many different levels lately and I'm of course learning at each.  I finally decided to take my shot at limit a few months ago and it seems to be a lot more fun than I relized.

    Devin...downloaded the your WSOP episode...while you weren't on for long it was good to see you playing.  Again congrats on the excellent finish.
  • UnknownUnknown
    From your original post: "ezymuny: raises $4 to $8"

    Thanks for checking out the episode.  Agreed that it was short, but it was also pretty sweet.  8)
  • westside8westside8
    I guess I wouldn't have limped in, unless they were suited. Otherwise I would've betted on the river and call any raises. I might've put ezymuny on top pair (he/she had lowest pair - questionable play IMO with 2 raises). I'm putting AndyHunter on two pair (5/10 maybe?).

    Btw. He "knew" because you left one of the betting amount on the turn.
  • ScottyZScottyZ
    I would have played it the same, except bet the river with the intention of calling.

    With this approach, you figure to collect (at least) 2 big bets nearly 100% of the time when your hand is good, and lose 2 big bets nearly 100% of the time when one of your opponents does have a flush. The latter being the less likely case suggests that betting the river is probably the way to go.

    ScottyZ
  • SirWattsSirWatts
    Calling preflop is correct, and bet/call a raise on the river.
  • BBC ZBBC Z
    Ok ok .. wait a second here..

    Preflop is ok? Yes, when you are in the SB you can play a much larger variety of hands.. but 89o?

    Whats the value in it? A raise I could understand if the button is tight. But calling? So you want the implied odds of playing against a button with any two and give the BB a free show? And what flops are you looking for aside from the one the Hero made?
  • RAM_EhRAM_Eh
    all_aces wrote:
    Thanks for checking out the episode.  Agreed that it was short, but it was also pretty sweet.  8)

    I watched the episode last night, my kids were impressed that there dad knows someone who plays poker and is on TV. (dad is a hero no the guy on TV). 8)

    I remember living the moment via the updates. How long were you at the final table?

    They didn't show you playing any hands.
  • UnknownUnknown
    Hey Rob,

    Say hi to your kids for me, from the guy who was on the teevee playing the poker.  My thoughts on the episode can be found here: http://www.pokerforum.ca/forum/index.php?topic=5549.msg46698#msg46698

    Back to the matter at hand:
    Ok ok .. wait a second here..

    Preflop is ok? Yes, when you are in the SB you can play a much larger variety of hands.. but 89o?

    Whats the value in it? A raise I could understand if the button is tight. But calling? So you want the implied odds of playing against a button with any two and give the BB a free show? And what flops are you looking for aside from the one the Hero made?

    I don't mind the preflop call.  Folded to the button, who limps for some bizarre reason.  Hero is getting a half-price look at a flop with a connected hand.  What's wrong with that?

    I don't mind raising either, as you mentioned, particularly if the button is tight.  You get the BB out of the way (maybe), fire a bet at any flop, and hope it missed the button completely.  I agree that is a good play.

    I think it comes down to what type of player you are.  Some will see the flop for half a bet from the small with any two.  Some will fold their cards for just a half bet.  I think the players who should feel comfortable seeing a cheap flop with any two are the players who can get away from a hand like top pair no kicker before it gets expensive.  Basically, they're thinking: I saw this flop with trash, and I wanted to hit it, hard.  I hit it, but not quite hard ENOUGH to continue.

    I am not a 'master of the laydown' by any means.  But I do have enough faith in my ability to fold that a weak-ish flopped hand that I think it's +EV for me to see a flop with ANY two, if it's only half a bet (or better still, a third of a bet) from the SB.  There are some players who, for reasons of their own, consider trash to be trash no matter how little it costs, who would fold hands like 89o for a half bet.  Personally, I'm not one of them, so I like sweetjimmi's preflop limp. 

    A preflop raise might have been better, but I'll have to mull that one over.

    And of course, if it's been folded all the way around to you in the small, that changes things.  It's either raise or fold time, IMO, usually.  But even with just one limper before you, I think completing from the small is OK, and it gets more OK the more limpers there are.
  • SirWattsSirWatts
    I don't like a raise preflop, maybe if the BB is very tight and the button is very predictable and will fold the flop is he misses. I don't think these criteria are met very often in most games, especailly low limits. Limp in and try to catch a flop. You're getting 5-1 immediately and assuming your opponents are bad players you have good implied odds.
  • ScoobyDScoobyD
    OK, I agree the implied odds of calling in the SB are big. Isn't this somewhat offset by the positional disadvantage? Or would you only limp here vs. tight opponents so that you have the opportunity to fire out as a bluff on safe looking flops. If that's the case, why not try to push out the BB with a raise preflop? Similarly do you limp with any 2 on the button? At least here you have the benefit of position... And if you DO, do you limp only in shorthanded pots (worse odds), or multiway pots (better odds, but better chance of being dominated at times). Or is this strictly a case of assuming your post-flop skills are miles ahead of your opponents? So many questions, and I have no answers...
  • BBC ZBBC Z
    I don't mind the preflop call. Folded to the button, who limps for some bizarre reason. Hero is getting a half-price look at a flop with a connected hand. What's wrong with that?

    Like I said in the OP, what flops are you looking for? 8 high? 9 high? Those are pretty rare.. So most likely, you are going to have a flop of [Overcard] 8 3 and then get the honor of playing it OOP against TWO hands instead of one..

    Thats why I'd prefer to raise it than limp..
    You're getting 5-1 immediately and assuming your opponents are bad players you have good implied odds.

    I'm all for using implied odds as reasoning to make thin value plays, but when you are in a pot with two players, there aren't any.
    Similarly do you limp with any 2 on the button?

    Never limp that button. Now an interesting consideration is low limit live casino games with monster rakes. I'm more inclined to fold in the SB and button if folded to me.
  • ScoobyDScoobyD
    When I mentioned limping the button I was assuming it wasn't a steal opportunity (ie. previous limpers), which of course would be a raise or fold. Don't get me wrong I'm not advocating it, but for those that think any 2 are worth half a bet in the SB with limpers than for an extra half a bet wouldn't having the benefit of the button be worthwhile?
    Now an interesting consideration is low limit live casino games with monster rakes.

    Good point, and one I hadn't considered. Playing small shorthanded pots isn't really worth it (I think it'd be pretty tough to squeeze enough +EV out of the hand to overcome the rake in these instances).
  • Dave ScharfDave Scharf
    Haven't read the rest of the thread yet
    PokerStars Game #2454750588: Hold'em Limit - 2005/08/29 - 22:51:03 (ET)
    Table 'Eumelos III' Seat #6 is the button
    Seat 1: sweetjimmi
    Seat 2: ezymuny
    Seat 3: Waldow
    Seat 4: mikep15539
    Seat 5: DublinHouse
    Seat 6: AndyH22
    sweetjimmi: posts small blind
    ezymuny: posts big blind
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to sweetjimmi [9c 8s]
    Waldow: folds
    mikep15539: folds
    DublinHouse: folds
    AndyH22: calls
    sweetjimmi: calls again probably weak here???
    ezymuny: checks

    I think your call here is fine. Short-handed getting 5-1 with a powerhouse like 9-8o I call everytime.
    *** FLOP *** [Th 5c 7h]
    sweetjimmi: bets
    ezymuny: calls
    AndyH22: raises
    sweetjimmi: calls Seemed obvious at the time...any one raising here?
    ezymuny: calls

    I am not a fan of betting out in this spot. You have a big draw, but it seems unlikely that you have the best hand. Will both opponents fold? Probably not. I tend to check the flop and then bluff the turn if nobody bets.

    Generally, I am not going to re-raise although I think it's an OK play under the right circumstances. SUppose, for example, that you were the BB and defended with your 98. In that spot I might three bet. If all he has it two overcards he will be hard pressed to call my turn bet. In this case, however, he limped and I think there is too great a chance that he actually has something.

    *** TURN *** [Th 5c 7h] [Js] Pretty straight forward here.
    sweetjimmi: bets
    ezymuny: raises
    AndyH22: raises
    sweetjimmi: raises
    Betting is capped
    ezymuny: calls
    AndyH22: calls

    Thank you Jesus. Thank you Lord. I promise to do my chores and be a good boy if you keep letting this happen to me.
    *** RIVER *** [Th 5c 7h Js] [Kh]
    sweetjimmi: checks The last heart scares me. Should it? I checked with the intension of calling
    ezymuny: bets
    AndyH22: calls
    sweetjimmi: calls

    I bet out. With all the action on the turn is looks to me like I am against made hands, not draws. The only disaster is 9h-8h on a freeroll but I will take that risk.
    *** SHOW DOWN ***
    ezymuny: shows [Jd 5s] (two pair, Jacks and Fives)
    AndyH22: mucks hand
    sweetjimmi: shows [9c 8s] (a straight, Seven to Jack)

    Who's your daddy? Jimmi's your daddy!
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