Any thoughts?
This is the second hand of a 4 person home game tournament. UTG raises 3XBB with AsKs. He is a great player who is often the winner in our tournaments. Everyone folds to the BB who doubles the raise to 8BB with 3d3h. He is an ABC player who makes alot of questionable plays. Original raiser goes allin and is called immediatley. Pocket 3's wins the hand. Was AK being overly aggressive? Did 33 make a bad call? Im thinking 33 should have folded to the all in raise.
Comments
If anything, I would have prefered a larger raise than 8BB from the 33. Being a virtual certainty as a 1-1 win odds hand, it's a hand where you'd prefer to win the pot right away, but could easily stand a call.
The stack sizes matter. For example, if the 33 faces another 100BB to call when the AKs moves in, then folding seems to be in order. If the all-in raise is only another 5BB, it's a very clear call.
ScottyZ
The stack sizes is the first thing to consider here. Further, and feel free to argue my point here Scotty, being first to act after the flop the pocket threes have the right to "first bluff" if the flop was all rags the threes can then move in and pick up the pot. If the board showed and A or K the thress can now hit the brakes and save a tonne of money.
I common error I see a lot of players make is stating "it's a coin flip" while the odds don't lie the fact of the matter is those odds are based on all seven cards. Don't give AK a chance to see the 4th or 5th street. Make a nice flop bet and take the flop. If they do call and 33 ends up against AA or KK anyway then the net result was the same as moving in pre-flop.
On a side note, because 33 is again first to act or future betting rounds, just calling the initial UTG raise then making a move at a Q67 rainbow board may get a pair of pocket 9's through J's to fold fearing they are up against a Queen.
I feel these kind of plays are much better with a vulnerable hand like 33 or hands even up to 77. 4 handed does make it significantly stronger but moving in with threes is never a good play in my opinion (unless as a bluff move). Calling an "all-in" is a lot harder then moving in yourself, especially with threes.
Mathmatically, you have to be up against at least two over cards, which makes it 50-50 (or close to it). You could be up against a higher pair which makes you a huge dog. The only hands you clearly dominate are "Big-Little" where the little cards is one of the remaining threes (slim odds there) or where the little card is a duece. Now comes the other bad thing... double paired boards become a factor. 22, and 33 become bad hands to play becuase on any paired flop you give your opponent more outs. It provides better odds than drawing to a full house when up against a made straight or flush. AK can now make any Ace, King, or double pair the board to beat you. On the turn the number of outs increase further by adding another card that can be paired on the river.
While I have many more reasons to not get in it all in pre flop with threes I think this shows it to be a fairly marginal play.
While I agree with most of what you said (I prefer moving in on a favourable flop as well or possibly on any flop even depending on the stack sizes). If you're extremely short stacked, I think you have to move in with the threes. As well, if there is some play left I think moving in with the 3's is a good play against an aggressive opponent that would frequently raise a considerable range of hands (A-rag, J9o, Kxs) but would have a signifigant gap in the range of hands that he would call an allin reraise with. If he's the type that will call ANY reraise here (or possibly because the 33 doesn't have enough chips to make him lay down to the reraise) , I don't like the push, I wait for the flop.
For the 33, a stop-and-go play for the 3BB, moving all-in rather than making it 8BB, just calling the 3BB (with the intention of looking at the flop), and folding might all be reasonable options depending on the stack size.
ScottyZ
Can we get an approximate count of the stack sizes (and relative to the rest of the table too).
I think this is definately the deciding factor