First Hand for discussion

IronDoc

Hi gang...playing in the PS 55 rebuy today when the following hand developed:  We are down to the final 2 tables and I am in 8th place and feeling pretty good about my chances to reach my first FT in an MTT.  I am the BB with 41k in chips (big stack around 200k on the other table).  I am dealt KK.  We are 7-handed right now...MP limps (blinds 2/4k at this point)...fold to button (around 26k) who was on my previous table trying to steal everything in site (either that or he had AA a lot) who raises 3BB...SB folds.

I push!?!?!?!!!!

Now why did I do that?  Limper folds and Stealer calls and turns AQc...I turn KK and the railbirds start chanting this guys nick.

A comes on the flop and I don't improve and I'm down to 16k...I improve with TT on the very next hand but soon after the blinds catch up with me and I'm out in 13th.

My thought is this:  With the whole tournament on the line should I have called his raise to see if the A comes down?  thanks for any discusssion...

Please let me know if more info would be useful...gonna go to bed tonight seeing that damn AQc in my head...

Bill

Unknown

Personally, I would have moved in pre-flop, like you did.  Think of it this way: let's say you just call the 3XBB raise pre-flop.  The flop comes with an ace in it.  You check, he bets.  (Let's not even consider the other opponent, for the moment).  Are you going to fold?  He'd make a bet in that spot without an ace as often as he would make it with an ace.  Or, what if you move in on the flop instead of checking?  (Not saying that's a good play).  You'll get called by an ace, and every other hand will fold.  That is clearly the wrong play, seeing as you'll either make no more chips or lose to an ace.  So, if you just call preflop, the best move would be to check, and then call (or move in, obviously, depending on the size of his bet).  That way at least you could get some chips out of his bluff, or you lose to an ace which you would have lost to anyways had you moved in preflop.  However, that's just the best move within the parameters of a bad situation: smooth-calling preflop.

I don't like just calling preflop, because both of the options that are available to you if the flop comes ace-high are undesirable, really.  Moving in is a bad play on an ace-high flop.  Checking and moving in isn't much better, but it is slightly better, because he could bet without the ace.  Not ideal by any means though.  The big reason I don't like just calling preflop is because of the limper, who would almost certainly call 2 more BB's, particularly if you just call as well.  That's one more opponent taking the flop with you guys, and that's one more opponent who could have an ace.

You have enough chips to get both of your opponent's hands to fold preflop if you move in.  The pot is already pretty decent.  5.5 BB's including yours.  You were just unlucky that you ran into a hand that was strong enough to call you (AQ).  But you weren't really unlucky to be in that spot because you'll win about 70% of the time.  That's pretty damn good.  You were just unlucky that you didn't.

PokerKai

when i get all my money in being a huge favorite, im generally pretty happy with how i played the hand...and its really the only way to play the hand given your read on the button.

IronDoc

...so, just unlucky here? I've gotta stop beating myself up...now I hear the player (S 18) is some kind of monster/pro/whatever.

Bill

BBC Z

My thought is this: With the whole tournament on the line should I have called his raise to see if the A comes down? thanks for any discusssion...

Or you could just fold your Kings preflop and not even have to worry about the ace.

IronDoc

BBC Z wrote:

My thought is this: With the whole tournament on the line should I have called his raise to see if the A comes down? thanks for any discusssion...

Or you could just fold your Kings preflop and not even have to worry about the ace.

Thanks...will do...it's always great to hear advice from more experienced players.

Bill

wader

IronDoc wrote:

BBC Z wrote:

My thought is this: With the whole tournament on the line should I have called his raise to see if the A comes down? thanks for any discusssion...

Or you could just fold your Kings preflop and not even have to worry about the ace.

Thanks...will do...it's always great to hear advice from more experienced players.

Bill

Good answer!
BBC usually has good feedback, but if you want it it also comes with criticism.

Redington

IronDoc wrote:

Hi gang...playing in the PS 55 rebuy today when the following hand developed: We are down to the final 2 tables and I am in 8th place and feeling pretty good about my chances to reach my first FT in an MTT. I am the BB with 41k in chips (big stack around 200k on the other table). I am dealt KK. We are 7-handed right now...MP limps (blinds 2/4k at this point)...fold to button (around 26k) who was on my previous table trying to steal everything in site (either that or he had AA a lot) who raises 3BB...SB folds.

I push!?!?!?!!!!

Now why did I do that? Limper folds and Stealer calls and turns AQc...I turn KK and the railbirds start chanting this guys nick.

A comes on the flop and I don't improve and I'm down to 16k...I improve with TT on the very next hand but soon after the blinds catch up with me and I'm out in 13th.

My thought is this: With the whole tournament on the line should I have called his raise to see if the A comes down? thanks for any discusssion...

Please let me know if more info would be useful...gonna go to bed tonight seeing that damn AQc in my head...

Bill

I haven't read any of the other responses yet, so this may be repetitive.

I think your push out of the BB here is a bit reckless, for two reasons

a) Your pushing out the value of the limper who you want for value when you have kings, especially since you discounted the hand of the button
b) If he is on a pure steal, it's likely that he has an ace, maybe good, maybe bad.... Given his chips it looks like he would defend with a good ace - you have no chance to get away from this hand - but if you call you can pound the pot with no ace but save chips if one hits.

- if he is really aggressive, then you might even get hi nm to bluff into this pot with no ace, the limper will probably fold.

Also, you said that he may have had AA everyhand, but more likely he was stealing. Did he show down any hands? This might have been the one hand where he overvalued it and was pushing his chips in the middle thinking you were taking a stand with a weaker cards. So his chips were going in the middle.

Text Book answer, great play and that's poker. Your ahead in the hand so odds say that this is a good push over time.

I like calling and pushing on the flop and advertising those kings if he folds with no ace, it will set up alot of play later with flops you can push on. Also if you won that hand, then get into another pot, you just told everyone you push with powerhouses so if you go only 2-3 BB it screams weaker hand. (It might set up more steals, but I think the value of port flop play gets devalued).

Looking forward to other answers...

CurlingZone

Push, you were way ahead, and blinds were getting close to eating you up as it is. You were at 10X the BB and this opportunity to grab the 5.5 BB without a fight, or get your money into the pot as a big favourite will give you a better chance to win the whole tournament.

Calling might be a good way to preserve your chips if the ace falls, but you're not going to get many opportunities like this one if you want to win.

Dave Scharf

Fold your KK pre-flop!?!?!?

Uh, I can't. The button has been defined as having a WIDE variety of possible hands. You can't fold KK here unless you want to go put on your sister's panties.

Your push is fine. The button only has 26K so there is little sense in soft pedalling this hand. You will not be able to escape if you call and you really don't want the original limper hanging around.

Ask yourself this question, "How did the button feel when he raised and then you moved in?" He felt worried. And, "How did he feel when the hands were tabled?" He felt nauseous.

You played the hand well and got unlucky.

If I flat call, I move in on the flop anyway, even with an ace.

Yes, the tournament is on the line. To win the tournament you have to win ALL the chips. KK v AQ is an EXCELLENT opportunity to do just that.

IronDoc

Thanks all...interesting that there are 2 camps...I feel that to win the whole thing, moves like this have to be made. Coming in 13th is okay but to win (or top 3 where the money is) you must be willing to take a few risks it seems.

...or not?

Bill

Unknown

If I flat call, I move in on the flop anyway, even with an ace

Dave,

Would you push on the ace-high flop, or check-raise him?  I agree with you that if you just call preflop you're going with the hand anyways, but what do you think about this?

Or, what if you move in on the flop instead of checking?  (Not saying that's a good play).  You'll get called by an ace, and every other hand will fold.  That is clearly the wrong play, seeing as you'll either make no more chips or lose to an ace.  So, if you just call preflop, the best move would be to check, and then call (or move in, obviously, depending on the size of his bet).  That way at least you could get some chips out of his bluff, or you lose to an ace which you would have lost to anyways had you moved in preflop.

ScottyZ

Actually, I think that moving all-in pre-flop with the KK is a no-brainer.

Using some form of the stop-and-go play doesn't make much sense to me. Why would you want to set up a scenario where your opponent might fold on the flop when he will typically be drawing at 3 outs with two cards to come?

While the chip stacks are certainly the appropriate size to attempt a stop-and go play, the hole cards are definitely not.

ScottyZ

IronDoc

By extrapolation, how far down does this argument hold? JJ? TT? I'd be curious to see opinions on play down to the medium-high pairs...interesting thread...

bill

Redington

Seems I am in a different camp here all together - Dave, Devin I would love your input.

1) By calling the 3x BB and hoping the EP stays puts an extra 8k in the pot, you don't have to worry about more then 2. At least give him the chance to call.
Ofcourse if he had pushed all in your calling.

2) By pushing preflop, it weakens your calls for stop an goes later

3) At this level online, I think that play typically gets ultra agressive. Although you don't want to play weak passive, conserving chips if an ace falls on the flop might make you get up 2-3 places in the $, vs. the extra 26K which might do the same thing. It doesn't move you out of the danger zone.

4)The odds for the Button with anything are right to call, he's getting 5-1 on his call, his money is going in the middle. So he will not lay down his hand.
The fact that he pushed 3x BB, vs all in reps more of a real hand then steal. Lets say it is as low as Suited A - 7.


I'm I thinking too weak here? Is this too defensive?

- At this level do you even care about setting up further play as your only play is all in? With a stack under 10x round?
- If the play is ultra aggressive, does more defensive play make anysense, or you should be just as aggressive?
- KK there is just no way you don't get all your money in the middle here?

Dave Scharf

Yes, Devin and ScottyZ are right. Stop and go is BAD. Either you have him killed and he folds, or he has you beat and calls. Bad Dave, bad. Move in pre-flop or check raise/call. But no stop-n-go.

3) At this level online, I think that play typically gets ultra agressive. Although you don't want to play weak passive, conserving chips if an ace falls on the flop might make you get up 2-3 places in the $, vs. the extra 26K which might do the same thing. It doesn't move you out of the danger zone.

Yeah, but this is missing a HUGE chance to win LOTS of chips. The ONLY hand you hate is A-A. And, with no ace on the flop you are going to lose A LOT of chips to his A-A. ANY OTHER HAND he has you WANT to get him all-in pre-flop.

What if he has A-Q and the flop is J-T-7. How do you win his chips? You don't. He will fold. But, you might get him to move all his chips in pre-flop with his A-Q.

I guess the point is that with K-K pre-flop you should not worry about conserving chips, you should be conspiring to win chips. If you are going to conserve chips with K-K then you are going to have A LOT of trouble winning multi-table tournaments since you will have a lot of trouble getting all the chips into your stack.

- At this level do you even care about setting up further play as your only play is all in? With a stack under 10x round?

I wouldn't bother setting up plays at this point since you may never have the chance to reap what you set up. Find and edge and exploit it. Any edge.

- If the play is ultra aggressive, does more defensive play make anysense, or you should be just as aggressive?

Usually, the proper counter strategy to over aggression is MORE aggression. If the chip stacks are too low for this then the proper strategy is to find a hand that is odds-on favourite, get the money in and cross your fingers. KK? That's gotta be odds on favourite.

- KK there is just no way you don't get all your money in the middle here?

If I did flat call I might fold with an ace on the flop. That will really depend upon the other players and the betting progression. For instace, if I called and the MP called that I check the flop. If MP bets it will tell me a lot and I could get away.