Omaha Hi/Low

Hammer

I have just started to dabble with Omaha hi/low. Is it just me or is this not a very beatable game?? I find the .5/1 plo extremly soft all over the place. Have many of you guys made this transition already?

Hammer

GTA Poker

I play 4 8 through 10 20 O8 live and it is very beatable at these lower limits...haven't come across a bigger game in the GTA. It also requires a smaller bankroll for a given limit due to the lower variance wrt holdem.

Tilter

I think this game is very beatable. I have played the SH game on stars and a lot of player are very weak. If you can pick up a good A23x ot Asxs2x and hit good flops or reraise to force out the AA and quarter a guy who is also betting the nut lo but without a pair.

People overvalue hands like A2 with weak side holdings. If a deuce flops you're hand is now useless but they still call down for no reason at all. I think this is my 2nd best or maybe my best tourney game now. I love playing omaha HL, more action too!

PokerKai

The skill disparity between good players and bad players in omaha 8 is much wider then it is in hold'em. I think this is due to the lack of literature on the game as well as the confusing nature of the high lo format. People just arent used to going for low hands and dont realize that you need to have a shot at both before you should be pushing your hand. All in all, i think it leads to softer games then hold'em of similar limits.

The annoying thing tho is the lack of game selection...online and B&M

Omaha_Ed

I play up to 50-100 live when I travel al well as pot limit and it has been my main game for 25 years. I find it has the most dead money in a lot of games but a tight omaha game is the worst game in the world so it varies. It never hurts to be able to play all games, especially live as you never know which game is going to have the best action where you are. Good luck in your efforts, Omaha Ed.

BBC Z

It also requires a smaller bankroll for a given limit due to the lower variance wrt holdem.

How can a game where you are delt 4 cards instead of 2 have LESS variance? Also, given that no hand is greater than a 3 to 2 favourite preflop doesn't that also increase variance?

People say this all the time, but I don't believe them.

Tilter

BBC Z wrote:

It also requires a smaller bankroll for a given limit due to the lower variance wrt holdem.

How can a game where you are delt 4 cards instead of 2 have LESS variance? Also, given that no hand is greater than a 3 to 2 favourite preflop doesn't that also increase variance?

People say this all the time, but I don't believe them.

With Omaha HL, you split the pot more often, therefore giving yourself a better chance to win. And if you play the correct card properly, you will be scooping or quartering more often then not.

BBC Z

Tilter wrote:

With Omaha HL, you split the pot more often, therefore giving yourself a better chance to win. And if you play the correct card properly, you will be scooping or quartering more often then not.

The universe of hands is larger and you need better hands in order to showdown a winner. You win bigger pots when you win, but you suffer from splitting/quartering if you hand doesn't fit perfectly.

These are all factors that INCREASE variance..

PokerKai

BBC Z wrote:

Tilter wrote:

With Omaha HL, you split the pot more often, therefore giving yourself a better chance to win. And if you play the correct card properly, you will be scooping or quartering more often then not.

The universe of hands is larger and you need better hands in order to showdown a winner. You win bigger pots when you win, but you suffer from splitting/quartering if you hand doesn't fit perfectly.

These are all factors that INCREASE variance..

Alot of the hands in Omaha Hi Lo are only cosmetically different. They dont really have a HUGE affect on the strength of a hand. If your holding A23 with an offusit dangler above 8...it really doesnt matter what the card is.

Moreover, a lot of the hands in the universe of hands are simply overmatched by the majority of hands you will play. Any A2XX hand is going to be worlds ahead of a KJ94 hand...it will hold up more often then say AA against 23 ever would in hold'em...because you start with an immediate freeroll draw for half the pot.

And you dont suffer from the half pots and quarters. Because the majority of the time, if you are playing properly, you are going to be AHEAD in BOTH pots, so when you are dealing with worse hands, they will have a much harder time to outdraw you. Furthermore, when you are behind, your better preflop hand is going to be able to redraw on your opponents much better then in hold'em.

For example...if you hold A349 of hearts and spades...even if the board comes A3xx killing your low draw, you still get a significant draw at your high. Its not a case where a guy flops a set in hold'em on your aces where your pretty much done.

BBC Z

Alot of the hands in Omaha Hi Lo are only cosmetically different. They dont really have a HUGE affect on the strength of a hand. If your holding A23 with an offusit dangler above 8...it really doesnt matter what the card is.

Right, but for every A23x, there are twelve times more x23X and x34x hands that are unplayable.

Moreover, a lot of the hands in the universe of hands are simply overmatched by the majority of hands you will play. Any A2XX hand is going to be worlds ahead of a KJ94 hand...it will hold up more often then say AA against 23 ever would in hold'em...because you start with an immediate freeroll draw for half the pot.

Ever heard of quartering? Counterfeiting? High flops? You don't start with an immediate freeroll for half the pot just because you hold A2.

nd you dont suffer from the half pots and quarters. Because the majority of the time, if you are playing properly, you are going to be AHEAD in BOTH pots,

I wish I could play in games where my opponents show me thier cards like they do in yours.

For example...if you hold A349 of hearts and spades...even if the board comes A3xx killing your low draw, you still get a significant draw at your high.

Umm, you realise you should likely FOLD that hand in that situation, right?


I've played PLENTY of O8.. and you still havent convinced me that 'Playing O8 has less variance than playing HE'. Ray Zee himself says:

Because Omaha eight-or-better is such a slow game, in the course of a night, you play a lot fewer hands than in other games. So you are not stacking as many pots, and your chips do not seem to be going up and down as much. However, they are going up and down a lot more per hand played than according to time spent at the table"

p237 High-Low Split for Advanced Players.

and I agree with him. More cards = more potential hands = more redraws against you = less preflop advantage = VARIANCE.

Please, STOP telling people that O8 has less variance. IT'S NOT TRUE.

PokerKai

BBC Z wrote:

Moreover, a lot of the hands in the universe of hands are simply overmatched by the majority of hands you will play.  Any A2XX hand is going to be worlds ahead of a KJ94 hand...it will hold up more often then say AA against 23 ever would in hold'em...because you start with an immediate freeroll draw for half the pot.

Ever heard of quartering? Counterfeiting? High flops? You don't start with an immediate freeroll for half the pot just because you hold A2.

A2XX has a freeroll on KJ94 for half the pot.  How is that not readily apparent to you?

BBC Z wrote:

and you dont suffer from the half pots and quarters. Because the majority of the time, if you are playing properly, you are going to be AHEAD in BOTH pots,

I wish I could play in games where my opponents show me thier cards like they do in yours.

Basic princpal of omaha8...draw to both...when I have a lock on the low and drawing to aces up and/or a wheel and/or a flush...yes...they might as well have their hands turned face up because it doesnt matter. 
Are you trying to argue that its impossible to feel your ahead for both pots?

BBC Z wrote:

I've played PLENTY of O8.. and you still havent convinced me that 'Playing O8 has less variance than playing HE'. Ray Zee himself says:

Because Omaha eight-or-better is such a slow game, in the course of a night, you play a lot fewer hands than in other games. So you are not stacking as many pots, and your chips do not seem to be going up and down as much. However, they are going up and down a lot more per hand played than according to time spent at the table"

p237 High-Low Split for Advanced Players.

and I agree with him. More cards = more potential hands = more redraws against you = less preflop advantage = VARIANCE.

Please, STOP telling people that O8 has less variance. IT'S NOT TRUE.

Your misinterpreting Ray Zee.  Hes saying that sessions have a smaller number of hands.  And that the amount of bets going into the pot per hand is more...which I agree...theres a lot more action.  But that is not an indicator of variance.

I know better then to try and convince you otherwise...so let me leave you with the following article and thread (rather then an obscure quote taken out of context) to see if they might convince you...

http://www.pokerpages.com/articles/archives/guy-downs05.htm
http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=omaha8&Number=2232157&page=1&view=collapsed&sb=9&o=&fpart=all

BBC Z

A2XX has a freeroll on KJ94 for half the pot. How is that not readily apparent to you?

Because you have to get there.

Are you trying to argue that its impossible to feel your ahead for both pots?

I'm arguing that at a fundamental level, O8 HAS to have more variance than HE.

our misinterpreting Ray Zee. Hes saying that sessions have a smaller number of hands. And that the amount of bets going into the pot per hand is more...which I agree...theres a lot more action. But that is not an indicator of variance.

You are right. It's not an INDICATOR of variance, it's the very DEFINITION of variance.

Risking MORE money with LESS of a edge = Variance. When you play against a single opponent, you are playing against the equivalent of 6 HE hands per player.

http://www.pokerpages.com/articles/archives/guy-downs05.htm
http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=omaha8&Number=2232157&page=1&view=collapsed&sb=9&o=&fpart=all

Sorry, two posters with 700 posts at 2+2 saying "O8 has less variance" isn't exactly proof. Now, if you can dig up a Sklansky or Miller or Mason post that says the same I'd be convinced but I have a feeling those posts don't exist.

Tilter

More variance means swings are bigger. With HE, you may miss a draw and lose or get sucked out

With omaha 8/o how is that so? You usually know if you're good, drawing on 1 pair usually doesn't happen. Small flush draws usually don't draw unless then have the nut or 2nd nut. A good player will have way way less variance. As I said they will either win 1l2, scoop or quarter. Omaha 8/o is usually a postflop game, rarely is it 3 bet or capped on the flop, but more often all limped. The raising begins when ppl have more defined hands, Ie nut low and hi raising and a guy with top two or ass end straight calling down.

Because Omaha eight-or-better is such a slow game, in the course of a night, you play a lot fewer hands than in other games. So you are not stacking as many pots, and your chips do not seem to be going up and down as much. However, they are going up and down a lot more per hand played than according to time spent at the table"

He just said it himself, your chips are not going up and down. So overall, the swings won't suffered. Its hard to see what you are arguing?

Also, The key skill is hand and flop evaluation, which is fairly mathematical. Bluffing, reading opponents, and complex situational post-flop decisions are less important.

More cards = more potential hands = more redraws against you = less preflop advantage = VARIANCE

= more bad player drawing to T high flushes when you got 2nd nut low or even nut low with nut flush redraw and a pair.

Risking MORE money with LESS of a edge = Variance. When you play against a single opponent, you are playing against the equivalent of 6 HE hands per player.

But you also have 6 hands as well. And only a fool wouldn't know whether he is good or not. Hands are more defined in Omaha 8/b.

You're too stuck up in the notion but now instead of playing against 9 hands in a limit game that you are now playing against 36. A2xx (miles ahead) vs a KJ94. If you're playing KJ94, I can see why you are having a lot of variance in youw omaha 8/b game. You will hardly know if you're ahead, you could be facing two raises from nut lows and drop your hand and what not. There is still added value is starting strong hands and althought A2xx may be counterfeited, its not a raising low hand, but if you have A23 and flop the nut lo you have a lot of added value there, possibly to the wheel, isolating with other lo and potentially scooping.

Gord

BBC Z wrote:

Risking MORE money with LESS of a edge = Variance. When you play against a single opponent, you are playing against the equivalent of 6 HE hands per player.

But you're not risking more money with less of an edge, if every hand ended preflop then yes you would be, but since most of the money goes in post flop, you're risking with a GREATER edge because your hand is much more defined. In most situations you will either have a good hi and lo draw or a made lo drawing to a hi, in that case if you get "sucked out on" you have a good chance of still winning half the pot or in a bad case a quarter. In Holdem when you get sucked out on or if the guy hits his draw you lose everything.

Tilter

BBZ, seems like you should reconsider your opinion on this matter. You just seem so adament on the fact of more variance of O 8/b

And to the original poster, here is a link to a guy who made a good O 8/b site http://www.o8poker.com/

His 2nd TOP 8 reason to play ) 8/b

2. There is much less variance than in most other poker games. To be fully bankrolled in O8 requires only about 20-40% of the funds for an equivalent Hold'em Game.

ScottyZ

Here's a nice way to think of why playing a split pot poker game generally leads to lower bankroll variance than a playing non-split pot game (all else being approximately equal).

Consider the following sequences of numbers:

A) -1, -1, +5, -1, -1, +5

-1, -1, -1, -1, -1, +10

These two sequences represent, in a stylized way, the types of bankroll movements you'd generally observe between the two types of games.

The (sample) variance of sequence A is (1 + 1 + 25 + 1 + 1 + 25) / 6 = 54/6.

The (sample) variance of sequence B is (1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 100) / 6 = 105/6.

ScottyZ

Omaha_Ed

What you guys seem to be missing while discussing the rate of variance is what I mentioned earlier. That a good Omaha game is the best game in the world while a tight omaha game with good players is horrible. I ca beat a tight holdem game all day but a tight omaha game isn't worth sitting in. The advantage in Omaha is that there are times that maybe 3-6 players are bad or even horrible and don't have a clue about the game, especially live. That is when no holdem game compares as these guys will keep putting money in post flop drawing dead or near dead to second thord and worse nuts. It is like free money. But play a game with 3-6 maniacs in a holdem game and see how many times they score huge wins off hitting flops and buying pots that doesn't happen in omaha.

Tilter

Ed, what do you think is better. Full table Omaha HL or a SH Table?

Jay845

Good discussion guys.....nice to see that stuff on the board

Omaha_Ed

Because of the nature of the game that you ususally have to show a winning hand and how tough it is to bluff pots, I seldom play short handed. For me the game profits me much more when full.