Bad Play?

westside8westside8
in Brags, Beats & Variance
PokerStars Game #2311497752: Tournament #10968425, Hold'em No Limit - Level VIII (200/400) - 2005/08/11 - 00:02:43 (ET)
Table '10968425 7' Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: quietman (23498 in chips)
Seat 2: MOJOEX1 (16346 in chips)
Seat 3: Genguskon (32712 in chips)
Seat 5: IceBear55 (22961 in chips)
Seat 7: wesleyw (8848 in chips)
Seat 8: craiggers64 (5301 in chips)
Seat 9: Pokerstud (18437 in chips)
quietman: posts the ante 25
MOJOEX1: posts the ante 25
Genguskon: posts the ante 25
IceBear55: posts the ante 25
wesleyw: posts the ante 25
craiggers64: posts the ante 25
Pokerstud: posts the ante 25
quietman: posts small blind 200
MOJOEX1: posts big blind 400
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to wesleyw [Kh Jh]
Genguskon: folds
IceBear55: folds
wesleyw: raises 8423 to 8823 and is all-in
craiggers64: folds
Pokerstud: raises 8423 to 17246
quietman: folds
MOJOEX1: folds
*** FLOP *** [7c As Ts]
*** TURN *** [7c As Ts] [9s]
*** RIVER *** [7c As Ts 9s] [Js]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
wesleyw: shows [Kh Jh] (a pair of Jacks)
Pokerstud: shows [Ac Kd] (a pair of Aces)
Pokerstud collected 18421 from pot

Was this a bad hand to go all in with pre-flop? Should I have just called and see the flop first?

Comments

  • ScottyZScottyZ
    Depending on the pre-flop table texture, all of folding, calling, and making a standard raise in the range of around $1,000 to $1,500 could be reasonable plays.

    Moving all-in risks too much for too little reward. Basically, you have bet far more than you needed to in order to "get the job done". A standard-sized raise will usually be sufficient if your goal is to simply pick up the blinds & antes. Folding or limping in might be better options against chronic blind defenders.

    The trouble with the exact hand KJ is that it's going to be in brutal shape nearly 100% of the time that you are called. Leave yourself an exit door in case an opponent picks up a hand that's worth playing behind you.

    ScottyZ
  • PokerKaiPokerKai
    your raise is what i would classify overkill. any call your getting from that raise is certainly one you dont want, and when you do get away with it, your not picking up a whole lot.
  • literationliteration
    These guys before me state it very well.  Your chips are so deep and really it's just KJ, at least sooted.  You may have had good reason to make some sort of play, but you exited this tourney too early.  If it's any consolation, I've exited tourneys too early.
  • WaterLooserWaterLooser
    I have found pre-flop moves compare a lot to chess. You have to ask the question "What will you do if he re-raises?" In this case you are a smaller stack at the table, so you need to know what size raises you will call, 1/2 your stack? if he puts you all-in? If your answer is fold to any of those then you only have two options, push or fold.
  • PokerKaiPokerKai
    WaterLooser wrote:
    I have found pre-flop moves compare a lot to chess.  You have to ask the question "What will you do if he re-raises?"  In this case you are a smaller stack at the table, so you need to know what size raises you will call, 1/2 your stack?  if he puts you all-in?  If your answer is fold to any of those then you only have two options, push or fold.

    So just because somebody is liable to come over the top of my standard raise to a total I cant call doesnt mean that it was a push or fold situation. Raising small then releasing in the face of pressure is a necessary skill.
  • SirWattsSirWatts
    Kai is right of course. When a normal raise pot commits you anwyays you should push or fold, everyone knows this. The only other time I would push instead of making a normal raise is when I think it is quite likely someone will try to resteal from me with a worse hand so I would have to call their reraise anyways, but I would prefer to just take the blinds not be all-in as a small favourite. Also I would have to be somewhat shortstacked. This is a pretty rare situation, seems like it would happen mainly at an aggressive final table where you don't want to risk getting broke when every spot you move up is substantial money. They key idea is that if you run into a real hand you wouldn't have been able to get away from your hand anyways.
  • ScottyZScottyZ
    In this case you are a smaller stack at the table...

    I think that some of the confusion here may be that, while the Hero is the 2nd shortest stack at the table, he is NOT short-staked. He has about 22 times the big blind, which is certainly not push or fold territory.

    ScottyZ
  • westside8westside8
    ScottyZ wrote:
    In this case you are a smaller stack at the table...

    I think that some of the confusion here may be that, while the Hero is the 2nd shortest stack at the table, he is NOT short-staked. He has about 22 times the big blind, which is certainly not push or fold territory.

    ScottyZ

    I never knew I'm "the Hero" in this forum now. Haha. I knew I made a bad play as soon as I press the "raise" button with the all-in. I guess to some extent I was a bit frustrated at a lack of good hands I have gotten (nothing good for nearly an hour), which kind of got me excited over this hand, as well as everytime I got a decent hand and play it to the end, I have gotten rivered. Thanks for all the advice given here. It was a stupid play as I let my emotion determined how I was going play this hand.
  • ScottyZScottyZ
    I never knew I'm "the Hero" in this forum now.

    Sorry if it's bursting your bubble, but I was just using the forum (not really even this forum) hand analysis tradition of generically calling the poster the "Hero" and the opponent the "Villain".

    ScottyZ
  • westside8westside8
    I know ScottyZ. It haven't been used on me yet so I'm just kind of taking in the moment for a bit. That was all.
  • WaterLooserWaterLooser
    ScottyZ wrote:
    In this case you are a smaller stack at the table...

    I think that some of the confusion here may be that, while the Hero is the 2nd shortest stack at the table, he is NOT short-staked. He has about 22 times the big blind, which is certainly not push or fold territory.

    ScottyZ

    I agree, perhaps I was a little too blunt, there are more options then just push or fold, but I think the main part of my statement is true, before you make a move, you should know what you will do for each counter-move your opponent(s) could make. Taking this extra step in thinking will often make me re-evaluate my current decision. I guess a pro would call these things fold-equity, steal equity, etc.
  • Dave ScharfDave Scharf
    Without peeking and other answers...
    PokerStars Game #2311497752: Tournament #10968425, Hold'em No Limit - Level VIII (200/400) - 2005/08/11 - 00:02:43 (ET)
    Table '10968425 7' Seat #9 is the button
    Seat 1: quietman (23498 in chips)
    Seat 2: MOJOEX1 (16346 in chips)
    Seat 3: Genguskon (32712 in chips)
    Seat 5: IceBear55 (22961 in chips)
    Seat 7: wesleyw (8848 in chips)
    Seat 8: craiggers64 (5301 in chips)
    Seat 9: Pokerstud (18437 in chips)
    quietman: posts the ante 25
    MOJOEX1: posts the ante 25
    Genguskon: posts the ante 25
    IceBear55: posts the ante 25
    wesleyw: posts the ante 25
    craiggers64: posts the ante 25
    Pokerstud: posts the ante 25
    quietman: posts small blind 200
    MOJOEX1: posts big blind 400

    OK. We are in middle position. We are in excellent shape. There are several players ahead of us, but it's costing less than 10% of our stack per lap of the button. We are not near the "panic button."
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to wesleyw [Kh Jh]
    Genguskon: folds
    IceBear55: folds
    wesleyw: raises 8423 to 8823 and is all-in

    Oops. I don't like moving in. This appears to be a classic case of "you will only be called if you are a dog." Nothing wrong with raising something. YOu are in middle position with a good hand, but moving in is risking too much. I prefer raising to 2000 or limping - depending upon the texture of the game.
    craiggers64: folds
    Pokerstud: raises 8423 to 17246
    quietman: folds
    MOJOEX1: folds
    *** FLOP *** [7c As Ts]
    *** TURN *** [7c As Ts] [9s]
    *** RIVER *** [7c As Ts 9s] [Js]
    *** SHOW DOWN ***
    wesleyw: shows [Kh Jh] (a pair of Jacks)
    Pokerstud: shows [Ac Kd] (a pair of Aces)

    So... what would have happned if we had made it 2,000? He would have moved in and you could have folded.
    Was this a bad hand to go all in with pre-flop?  Should I have just called and see the flop first?

    I favour a standard raise as opposed to a call. But, calling isn't BAD.
  • CrazyJoe113CrazyJoe113
    Dave Scharf wrote:
    I prefer raising to 6000 or limping - depending upon the texture of the game.

    6000? is it me or does that seem too much with blinds of 200/400. If he raises to 6000 and gets reraised for his last 2200 he'll be getting 6 over 5 to 1 on the call so i dont see how he could get away from it.

    the 2,000 you mention later makes far more sense to me, where is 6000 coming from?
  • westside8westside8
    I think he might've meant 600?
  • Dave ScharfDave Scharf
    Oops. Heh. Typo. Fixed now. Should have been "raising 2000" (I think I was thinking of have 6000 left).
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