ScottyZ v. Dave Scharf
Slightly interesting hand that ScottyZ and I just played at Planet Poker. I think it is interesting because it illustrates how hard it can be to play against players who are not "ABC."
(ScottyZ, correct any factual errors I made).
Short handed $5-10 ring game. Folded to ScottyZ in the cutoff who raises. DaveScharf re-raises on button. All fold to ScottyZ who flat calls.
What range of hands do you put ScottyZ on?
What range of hands do you put DaveScharf on?
Flop is Kh-4c-2c.
ScottyZ checks. DaveScharf bets. ScottyZ raises. DaveScharf re-raises.
Now, what range of hands do you put ScottyZ on? DaveScharf?
More to come...
(ScottyZ, correct any factual errors I made).
Short handed $5-10 ring game. Folded to ScottyZ in the cutoff who raises. DaveScharf re-raises on button. All fold to ScottyZ who flat calls.
What range of hands do you put ScottyZ on?
What range of hands do you put DaveScharf on?
Flop is Kh-4c-2c.
ScottyZ checks. DaveScharf bets. ScottyZ raises. DaveScharf re-raises.
Now, what range of hands do you put ScottyZ on? DaveScharf?
More to come...
Comments
In other words, I didn't think I was in an obvious steal position. However, I was playing pretty actively pre-flop, stealing and semi-stealing from all over the place. :cool:
ScottyZ
Dave 77-JJ
Scotty QQ-JJ
For some reason, I want to put Scotty on TT and Dave on JJ. I think you both have underpairs to that king on the flop, and it's a game of who's gonna blink first. It's really a wild guess, though.
Pre-flop, Dave has been, as we'd probably expect, tight and aggressive. I had only seen him re-raise one pot during this session, and I assumed it was a medium pair, because the betting was capped pre-flop and he checked and folded on the flop when two high cards fell, something like AQx IIRC.
So, pre-flop, my preliminary read is that Dave probably has some pocket pair, AK or AQ. I also realize that he is capable of making a move on me with some hands from his "re-steal package", but I'm more inclined to put him on a real hand rather than trying to isolate me with a medium strength holding. Of course, playing short, "real hand" can mean a lot of hands.
I just call pre-flop.
On the flop in a short-handed game, I check the flop nearly 100% of the time when my opponent had the lead pre-flop. With a good hand, I go for a check-raise. I will also sometimes check-raise as a bluff. The reason for this is that I expect an opponent who had the lead pre-flop to automatically bet the flop whether he has hit or missed. Setting up this flop auto-bet is partially why I will call a lot of 3-bets (rather than capping it) when I'm out of position against the 3-bettor.
Dave bets the flop, which, of course, gives me almost no new information. I decide to go for a bluff here in case he is on a pocket pair below K, or a complete whiff with some strange re-stealing hand.
When Dave re-raises the flop, I will condeed the fact that he has a hand that he is willing to see to the end. I look at my cards again, and my red AQo now looks pretty gross. I fold to Dave's re-raise.
It may be the case that I "blinked first", but I'm putting Dave on at least a pocket pair here. There are other possibilities, perhaps two clubs (in which case he might have as many as 15 outs) or a complete stone-cold bluff attempt.
I think Dave would play a huge hand (i.e. a pair if Kings or better) the way he has with those two clubs on board, and also (and I think carrying more importance) because I have shown a lot of strength myself. There is no reason for him to slowplay a monster hand here since I have strongly suggested that I have a hand that's worth playing myself.
Whatever he has, he seems to not be buying the fact that I have a hand, so I give up on my bluff attempt.
In the "after the fact" analysis, I actually give him credit for at least AK. This is not why I folded in real-time--- the reason for that was that I simply had thrown a lot of heat his way already and he wasn't buying it. However, even for a non-ABC player like Dave, it makes more sense for him to have a hand that beats a pair of Kings here, not one that loses to that hand.
Nice hand, sir. Or, an even nicer play if I actually did throw away the best hand.
ScottyZ
I put DS on a pocket pair, under kk, possibly AQc and SZ on the same pocket pair, AK-Ax where x goes down based on the relative competition at the table. Considering DS is on his left I think the x gets pegged at J.
The really neat thing to observe is how important position becomes with two really good players at the table. Invariably, the guy out of position must blink first or go broke not blinking.
Note -- after reading SZ's version, I don't like the c/r as a standard play. I really like the play, but will change it based on how I'm playing and the relative strength of my opponents. In this spot, I like giving my strong opponent more rope when I do have a hand. So, I prefer to bet out with stronger oppnents. Going three bets is more heat and a stronger bluff than a plain old c/r. If DS four bets well, I think he must be on a flush draw and I have the best hand.
Cheers
Magi
ScottyZ raises. I give him credit for "something" but I have him on a wide range of hands.
I three bet with Ac-3c. I am re-stealing.
Flop is Kx-4c-2c.
Scotty CR and I three bet thinking I have 12 outs for sure, maybe 15, and maybe the best hand.
ScottyZ folds.
The hand is interesting, I think, because we are both here to talk about it and can get both sides of the story.
And, it shows some of the difficulty playing against "non-ABC" players. Against an unknown player I probably fold the hand pre-flop OR I flat call his C/R. But because I know that ScottyZ is capable of folding and because I know that he knows that I know and I know that he knows that I know that he knows...
Often, low-limit know it alls watch the BIG games and think "How the hell can they play like that, I would kill that game." Nope. The game gets tricky when all participants have brains.
Also note, I don't think shrewdly outplayed ScottyZ. I think I got damn luck to hit the flop that hard with my 3-1 dog hand.