How would you play this?

NurseHoliday

Okay, so I don't post hands very often, but this one is really bugging me. Interested in any and all feedback and points of view.

$2/$4 Texas Hold'em - Wednesday, July 13, 18:10:44 EDT 2005
Table Mars Versus Venus (Real Money)
Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 3: Candiman44 ( $139.75 )
Seat 10: ValleyboyYM ( $116.75 )
Seat 5: CROOKed_e ( $83 )
Seat 6: Royalgolfer ( $86 )
Seat 1: MGBETS ( $95 )
Seat 9: Cass7 ( $75.50 )

CROOKed_e posts small blind [$1].
Royalgolfer is sitting out.
Cass7 posts big blind [$2].

** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to CROOKed_e [ Qs Qd ]
Royalgolfer has left the table.
ValleyboyYM raises [$4].
Babs13 has joined the table.
Candiman44 raises [$6].
CROOKed_e raises [$7].
Cass7 folds.
ValleyboyYM calls [$4].
Candiman44 calls [$2].

** Dealing Flop ** [ 7s, 5s, 3h ]

CROOKed_e bets [$2].
ValleyboyYM calls [$2].
Candiman44 calls [$2].

** Dealing Turn ** [ 6d ]

CROOKed_e bets [$4].
ValleyboyYM raises [$8].
Candiman44 raises [$12].

So now WTF am I supposed to do? Keep in mind this is a $2/$4 limit table.

Would your advice change if this were a $10/$20 table?

Thanks,

NH

ScottyZ

I would have played it as you did up to the mystery point, and then folded. Same goes for $10-$20.

Generally, when you face a raise and a re-raise on the turn at least one of your opponents is not kidding. Certainly one may be coming alive with a monster draw, but I think you've got to put at least one of them (and probably the re-raiser) on a made hand, probably a set or better, but certainly 2 pair at a minimum. Maybe KK or AA slowplayed on the flop, but that's both stretching the imagination and having you badly beaten anyway.

Incidentally, I think that betting out on the turn is excellent. It really helps to define your hand, but, more importantly, does not give your opponents a free card on a scary board if you actually do still have them beat. Checking the turn with the intention of folding you'd probably be folding the best hand too often. Checking without the intention of folding would leave me quite confused about how to proceed with the rest of the hand.

ScottyZ

BBC Z

Tough spot and it's completely dependant on the reads of your players at the table.

What hands would a player cap with preflop and then 'Slow-play' the turn and get very frisky on the turn.... It seems to scream to be overpair... Now you read on the players will tell you what kind of overpairs... Your agressive guys will have something as low as 88 while your tight players will only be as low as JJ..

So.. In general, I'd land up folding it and taking notes of what hands these guys actually show..

Stick a terrible or tricky player in there and I think you have to call down.

on a made hand, probably a set or better

I don't see an UTG raiser holding a pp below 88 and a MP vilian doesn't 3 bet with less than JJ or AQs.. so I can't see any opponent on a set..

Edit:
I was thinking of this hand from an SSH perspecive.. If you were at a table of 2+2ers, I'd expect them to have small overpairs in this situation... So more reason to think against 'better' opposition that your hand may still be best..

Dave Scharf

Rammy the Mad Poker Pirate would probably raise...

OK, hopefully I am being too hard on myself. I will give this more thought and get back to you.

STR82ACE

Fold. Board isn't any help at all, and your ladies are bound to get knocked around. Raise and ReRaise is enough to make you stop and think, but in the end, I think you're beat. You're short stacked right now, and folding here to make a play with a more cooperative board later would most likely be my call. Be sure to watch closely as BBC mentioned, and next time unload on them.

BigChrisEl

I think a folder is in order as well. At $2/4 you tend to get players that sit in on Ace, Rag and that Rag could easily be a 4 on this hand. Your only other option is to cap it and then fire out on the river and how that either A the players that stay are bluffing or have a low pair ( IE 9's)

Chugs

tough spot but the pre-flop action gives a good indication of what's you're up against.

one is likely holding big suited cards AK-ATs
other either holds something like 88 (osd) or a set, thing is that a set is less likely with the way the raising went pre-flop

Dave Scharf

$2/$4 Texas Hold'em - Wednesday, July 13, 18:10:44 EDT 2005

Low-limit. Players are probably "as advertised."

Cass7 posts big blind [$2].

** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to CROOKed_e [ Qs Qd ]
Royalgolfer has left the table.
ValleyboyYM raises [$4].
Babs13 has joined the table.
Candiman44 raises [$6].
CROOKed_e raises [$7].

So far, so good. I like the chances that Q-Q is the best hand.

Cass7 folds.
ValleyboyYM calls [$4].
Candiman44 calls [$2].

** Dealing Flop ** [ 7s, 5s, 3h ]

CROOKed_e bets [$2].
ValleyboyYM calls [$2].
Candiman44 calls [$2].

Action would indicate that we are still the best. Bwahahahaha.

** Dealing Turn ** [ 6d ]

CROOKed_e bets [$4].
ValleyboyYM raises [$8].
Candiman44 raises [$12].

Hmm... tough one. I don't worry too much about Valleyboy's raise. It could be AA or KK or a set, but I will take my chances. But, the re-raise? That's a problem.

I probably go into check and call mode. I am probably beat, but for another $12 I an interested in seeing it through.

This is, however, a close decision either way. And, close decisions mean that you do not have much to gain one way or the other. So, fold if you prefer to avoid the variance. Calling is definately much higher variance.

Would your advice change if this were a $10/$20 table?

Generally, yes. Fold.

stoneskn

Do you think they have a 4?

I do.

fold.

NurseHoliday

CROOKed_e folds.
ValleyboyYM calls [$4].
** Dealing River ** [ Kh ]
ValleyboyYM checks.
Babs13 has joined the table.
Candiman44 checks.
ValleyboyYM shows [ 6h, Ah ] a pair of sixes.
Candiman44 shows [ Ts, Td ] a pair of tens.
Candiman44 wins $58 from the main pot with a pair of tens.
Game #2357511697 starts.

Obviously not happy with the result, as I was ahead and would have won a very nice pot. However, I ultimately figured that I was drawing near dead if not dead...my main worry was the Ace rag that another poster mentioned...worried the rag was the dreaded 4 (Ace 4 suited for a raise or 2 preflop..definitely possible at this level and with just 5 players at the table). Certainly AA or KK was a possibility given the PF action, but the flop betting definitely confused me.
Certainly Valleboy can play at my table from now on. Come to think of it, so can Candiman...what was he thinking on the turn? Yes, scaring away a higher pair (me) makes sense, but was he not worried about Valley having the Sraight also? Ya got me.

Thanks everyone for the input.

BBC Z

Come to think of it, so can Candiman...what was he thinking on the turn?

Candiman played it perfectly. if he folds to your turn 3-bet.. His hand is too good to toss away, so raise.

Again, with the preflop action, the chance of the straight being made is very low.

Dave Scharf

chance of the straight being made is very low.

I think that in a typical $2-4 game the chance is actually reasonably high. But, there is enough chance that I probably call it down.

BigChrisEl

Dave Scharf wrote:

I think that in a typical $2-4 game the chance is actually reasonably high. But, there is enough chance that I probably call it down.

Especially if you take a look at what ValleyboyYM stayed in with, he bet $8 to see the flop with Ace suited, not only that but he raised earlier and then was re-raised. So with a player like that at the table he could have easily caught the straight.