Aces cracked - how bad was it really?
7 people left in a home game.
Blinds $250-$500 - I have about $7000+
Key points: My table image here was tight, and almost every time I bring it in for a 3x or 4x BB raise it is all folds....and I win the blinds.
I am UTG. I get AA. Am pretty sure if I raise 3xBB it will be all folds again - especially because of my image at the time and I was UTG so
they would respect the raise even more. So I bet $1000 (2xBB) and it is all folded around to the Big Blind who has about $10,000+ in chips.
He thinks for a while and I can honestly tell he is about to fold it. But then says "Ok lets see a flop". and tosses in another $500 chip.
Flop: 6 J 6
He bets $1,000 - I re-raise to $3,000 - then he takes a really long time (1 full min) then goes All in. I pray he hit his Jack and hope he
was not lucky enough to have a six. I call - he shows Q6 and I am done.
I took the risk (and was willing to take it) to make more $ off this hand and it did not work out.
How bad of a move was this? Would you guys ever just raise 2XBB with AA - ever ever ever? or never never ever?
The guy told me if I would have raised 3x BB he would have folded for sure - so my read of the table was 100% right and what I wanted was one player - which was also exactly what
I wanted....so other than losing the hand - it went pretty well..in terms of me reading the table...
comments?
thanks.
Blinds $250-$500 - I have about $7000+
Key points: My table image here was tight, and almost every time I bring it in for a 3x or 4x BB raise it is all folds....and I win the blinds.
I am UTG. I get AA. Am pretty sure if I raise 3xBB it will be all folds again - especially because of my image at the time and I was UTG so
they would respect the raise even more. So I bet $1000 (2xBB) and it is all folded around to the Big Blind who has about $10,000+ in chips.
He thinks for a while and I can honestly tell he is about to fold it. But then says "Ok lets see a flop". and tosses in another $500 chip.
Flop: 6 J 6
He bets $1,000 - I re-raise to $3,000 - then he takes a really long time (1 full min) then goes All in. I pray he hit his Jack and hope he
was not lucky enough to have a six. I call - he shows Q6 and I am done.
I took the risk (and was willing to take it) to make more $ off this hand and it did not work out.
How bad of a move was this? Would you guys ever just raise 2XBB with AA - ever ever ever? or never never ever?
The guy told me if I would have raised 3x BB he would have folded for sure - so my read of the table was 100% right and what I wanted was one player - which was also exactly what
I wanted....so other than losing the hand - it went pretty well..in terms of me reading the table...
comments?
thanks.
Comments
Better to call with the AA rather than making it 2*BB if you want to induce action. Pocket Aces is certainly one hand that is suitable for a pre-flop slowplay. It's perhaps debatable whether there is another such hand. :cool:
If you do in fact decide to raise, I think you should make a raise comparable with (ideally identaical too) the amounts (ideally amount) that you have been raising to pre-flop previously during this betting round.
ScottyZ
Even if I was certain my "standard" raise would surley only win the blinds? Also, I still think slowplaying aces is dangerous (maybe because I am still new?) becaue then I don't know what to put my opponent on, other than "he/she can't have that great a hand or they would have raised".
And why better to call than raise 2xBB ? Can you explain that more? I think if I would have limped then the SB and BB at LEAST would have seen that flop, putting my AA in even more danger...with a 2xBB raise at the very least I would expect someone with a good/strong hand to re-raise me (which is aslo what I was hoping for) so that I could re-raise that rasie.
At Robs place, I can't remember what his name was, he was short stacked with about 34k left.
Blinds where at 6/12 and I was in BB with 7/8o or something.
he raised UTG to 24k ... he had 34k
I called the 12k raise because I knew he had AA and I was looking for a flop top bust him because of it.
Flop came down 4/6/8 or something similiar.
I said here's your 10k, lets hope I hit that 5.
he calls.
I didn't improve, BUT, I knew he had AA
No offence either, but if you call with 7/8o and you know your opponent has AA this SCREEEEEEEMS "you are going to lose a lot of $ in your life" !
For my money, 7-8 suited is probably the best hand you got a shot at for beating AA... and I know I've done it many times. Secondly, if you've got AA, and only raise 2x BB, you're not making it that expensive to see a flop. 7-8 is my personal favorite hand, and I will call 2x BB anytime.
Mark
In this case, limping in with the AA would probably be better. Just picking up the blinds with AA is normally not a great result.
Sure slowplaying AA is more dangerous than not slowplaying it. If you simply want to protect the hand as best as possible, make a pre-flop raise.
As for putting your opponents on hands when you limp in (or even put in a tiny raise) pre-flop, you can't, nor do you really need to. You're just going to have to hope that your opponent does not flop a monster. Luckily, the odds against your opponent outflopping your Aces are enormous.
This does two things.
1. Disguises your hand. There is a wide range of hands that you might limp in with. As Psi alluded to, the full range of hands that a typical consistent 3BB+ raiser will go 2BB with is {AA, KK}.
2. Forces at least one player to see the flop. You are playing as if want action with the AA when you raise to 2BB or less. You might as well guarantee that you get that action.
Sure your AA is more likely to get outflopped. But you can't have it both ways. You want action, or you don't. If you don't want the action (which is not necessarily wrong BTW), just make a standard raise.
This depends a lot on player read and the style of your table. Sometimes I find myself at a table where it would be more llkely for a player to make a move over top of me if I limped, than if I had put in any size raise.
ScottyZ
If you call at 23% chance to win <<pre-flop>> (that is if the 7-8 is suited) the "best hand you got a shot" with you are nutzo !
and I was pointing to the fact that the other guy said he "knew the other guy had AA" - frankly I can't see why you'd call in the first place. But that is just me maybe?
2C
Wader
I think that 23 % chance is roughly the same as two overcards (non-paired) vs. your two (A-K vs. J-Q).
Again, I would call J-Q for 2x the BB.
My math may be wrong there, I've not got it memorized, but back to the original, if I *KNOW* a guy has AA, I'll call a 2x BB with 7-8 suited, see the flop, and then decide from there, there's a potential of a great drawing flop: 9-10-7, two-suited for example would give you what 17 outs (9 hearts, 3 6's, 3 J's, 3 8's and 2 7's?) ! This would make you a favorite. And once you've seen the flop, you can get away really easy if you want, and it onlyl cost you 2xBB, hell, I lose that much when a blind steal fails.
Mark
So are you saying you will always bring AA in for a standard raise (3-4xBB) UTG always no matter what - just hoping to get lucky enough to run into 10-10 J-J Q-Q K-K A-K etc....
and you are totally Ok with maybe just winning the blinds here?
Im just trying to get a feel here if people mostly never limp or min raise AA UTG or if the more common/safer/more standard play is the standard raise - no matter what.
Hmmmm really? - I would not.
If we were in some hyperspace world where you could see through cards....and it was heads up and you called 2XBB with 7-8 suited every time you "saw" the other guy had
AA - over time, you would be a big fat poor space monkey....cause man, you would lose a lot of times (ie: not hitting the flop at all, hitting the flop sometimes and then chasing the draw and missing, etc....)
I disagree. If you can put your opponent on a very narrow range of hands, then there exists an amount preflop greater than 0 that you can pay to see the flop based on the implied odds of you making your hand and your opponent paying you off.
Thats exactly what he's saying.. Except that it's not because the raiser is looking to win the blinds or "lucky enough to play against someone with TT-KK", you raise the same amount because your opponents get no reads based off your raise.
And if you do enough preflop raising in that siutation with hands other than AA, your opponent will increase his range of calling hands.
I play a lot of Limit and it happens from time to time. Someone is trying to entice action, so they limp, then they see a mark and raise them back. I presume the same is done in NL, i just haven't personally seen it happen yet.
His name was Dave...
Yes I put in the minimum raise with AA. Â We were down to 3 handed and I had the button. Â I had 3x BB left. Â Hork42 had a TON of chips.
Had I moved all 36K in, I don't think you were calling, that would have been 1/2 your stack and I'd get 18000 in blinds. Â
Had I limped in and Hork called to see the flop and you check, then my AA is up against 2 random hands. Â I didn't want that either (maybe I should have wanted that, I never said I was any good)
Whatever it screamed I didn't really care. Â Tough to disguise things 3 handed with 3xBB.
Even if you limp in with the AA and the flop comes down J-6-6, you must think your in a very good position.
If the BB checks into you ... I would think the logical move would be to push a little and see whats up. Even if you Check it, the other cards didn't help in the end. I think no matter how you played this you would suffered a crippling blow to your stack unless you really made the flop expensive.
So what if you only catch the blinds? You would have more chips after the hand than you did to begin with.
That being said, if your play is going to scream AA let it be loud an clear, if you really pushed the pot with a massive bet, do you think dude was gonna call you with Q6?
Just my two cents (Don't take it as advice, I have been getting crazy licks as of late)
Here's what you're forgetting....
by your stats, 3/4 of the time, I lose 2xBB, fine.... let's say I'm not doing badly, and my stack is roughly 10x BB, which is low, but not deadly. If I hit my hand, I'm going to win 10x BB that one time, of course, that's if the AA calls me. If he doesn't however, I'm up 4x BB, so I don't really see how I can lose that often, since one way, I'm up to 14x BB and the other I'm up to 20x BB. This is of course all hypothetical since there's never a 100% read on AA, no matter how good / bad someone is.
Mark
Exactly my point! Glad to see someone agrees, I was starting to think I was nuts... and not just dirty.
Dave...
Just tell them "The Hamburger I ate tells me to raise all in"... dude.. hamburger, I'm calling!!
Mark
I'm pretty sure this is Doyle Brunson's advice in SSII
Mark
While I agree with this, in the specific example given (raise to 24k with 10k left) I'm not a huge fan of the play of calling with the suited connector when he KNEW the opponent was on aces. Reason being the stacks aren't deep. The extra 10k isn't giving him that much more in implied odds. He's getting about 4.3:1 with implied odds. (12k + 6k + 24k + 10k/12k) He's maybe a 3.5:1 dog. Crap. It still might be a +EV play. Someone please check my math. Of course I think this is a no brainer call with deep stacks in the BB. I guess this just goes to illustrate the dangers of a min raise, in that the BB can be getting extremely good implied odds to call with a pretty wide range of hands.
Well, since I haven't read SSI or SSII I'll take this as a compliment.