Pre-Flop...What the heck is going on?
Dave,
Thought I'd come seek advice from a winning limit hold'em player. I've been studying/playing at poker for awhile. But the tone I keep hearing over and over is "get away from hand charts". Now, okay I can deal with this. Charts are gone, but now what in heck do you do?. I know so much of poker is situtational etc, is there really a time when T2o can be profitable in a limit ring game? or 95o? The pre-flop charts I've seen in SSH, or Lee Jones Winning Low Limit Hold'em are generally what I thought would make a game profitable...
Anyway Dave, I guess what I am wondering is,
if someday I aspire to beating 10/20 will I have to move off hand charts?
Thought I'd come seek advice from a winning limit hold'em player. I've been studying/playing at poker for awhile. But the tone I keep hearing over and over is "get away from hand charts". Now, okay I can deal with this. Charts are gone, but now what in heck do you do?. I know so much of poker is situtational etc, is there really a time when T2o can be profitable in a limit ring game? or 95o? The pre-flop charts I've seen in SSH, or Lee Jones Winning Low Limit Hold'em are generally what I thought would make a game profitable...
Anyway Dave, I guess what I am wondering is,
if someday I aspire to beating 10/20 will I have to move off hand charts?
Comments
Having said that, I once read a smart thing by Sgt Rock which I will now paraphrase.
Delta factor -- if every player plays the same, nobody will win. So, to win you MUST be playing differently than your opponents. Playing differently is not enough on its own. You must be PROFITABLY different. The vast majority of player play too loose, you are better of to play tighter.
This is, in essence, what most good starting hand charts do.
Are the occasions in which you can depart from a starting hand guide and be profitable? Yes. But, don't be in a hurry to do so. And, make sure you have some VERY compelling reasons to do so.
?!!
It should be the goal of any poker player to toss out the use of the charts as soon as possible.. They're a crutch used by players who don't understand the game and don't understand the 'WHY' of the cards the charts recommend..
A chart doesn't take the context of a game in account.. Can T2o be profitable? Sure, if you are playing against the right opponents..
Hmmm... I do not completely agree.
I use a set of starting hand guides. Each hand I choose which starting hand guide to employ. I am not so rigid that I have a single starting hand guide, but I am generally rigid once I have chosen with guide to deploy. In fact, a deep understanding of "why" will give you profitable ranges of hands to play in particular positions. That is nothing more than a starting hand guide.
So yes, get beyond the single guide in your single book. But, you need to have some kind of guide based upon some assumptions.
Starting card charts are based upon a set of assumptions. The assumptions are generally very valid at low and mid limits.
To quote Lou Krieger (although he doesn't remember saying to me so I should claim it as my own): "Starting hand guides are essential for the beginner, a guide for the intermediate player, and a point of departure for the expert."
Should you seek to "get beyond starting hand charts?" Of course, but my experience is that the VAST majority of players depart from their starting hand guide too soon and without good reason. Thus my admonition to "have some very compelling reasons to do so." The most damaging thing I ever read was Sklansky when he said, "Skilled players can play a little looser." I immediately decided that this applied to me and I lost tons of money pretending I was a skilled player.
Our opinions differ on what we consider to be a starting hand guide.. My interpretation of the original posters question was a static pre-flop selection chart that never changes based on current game conditions. Ie, a chart like found in a printed book that is followed verbatim. I consider what you are describing to be what we should be aspiring to as poker players.
Interesting.. My observation is slightly different.. I've found that most 'educated' players (ie, this forum, or 2+2 or book readers) tend to rarely play outside the box and follow their static charts to the printed letter.. Of course, I understand the vast majority of players don't fall in that box but I tend to believe that the book learners a're the ones that should toss away the charts sooner than later..
I have been playing poker (well Hold 'Em) for about 2 1/2 years now. I have been keeping stats on what I spend in each style of Hold 'Em, and have found this:
Playing in tournaments, about 1 per month for 18 months (average buy-in around $100) I am up $285
Playing NL 1/2 cash games (27 total) I am up $1100
$20 Home games, tourney style (28 months, 2 per week, 2 per night) I am up $60
And here is my point to this thread.....
Casino 2/5 limit Hold 'Em.......12 trips, $100 each trip, down $800, which would have been $1200 (I went last night), but all week I have been reading Dave's book, and I have re-read and re-read the charts, Player Classifications and Basic Lowlimit strategy, over and over and over.
So last night I go, I buy-in for $100. I do not post right away, the dealer button is about 2 seats to my left. I watch the table play for about 5 hands, and then got up and went outside for a smoke. I sat down just as the BB got to me and started to play. The only thing going through my mind was the charts, shit I even called my wife half way to Rama to go over the charts again.
Anyways, the just of it is, I used the charts and other things from Dave's book, and for the first time I walked out of a 2/5 L game with a profit. I did sway far from the charts once I was able to put certain players in a box, it worked and sometimes it didn't.
DO NOT toss away the charts, memorize them, but watch how your opponents play, put them into a box and then you can stray and play hands like 34s catch the flush knowing that the SFish and the OTuna can't put you on a hand, catch high pair and cap it everytime.
But for this to work, you really must play disciplined cards and really pay attention to the what and how others players play.
I am by no means a pro, actually I would not even consider myself an amateur, but for the first time after reading a book and being disciplined and feeling like I knew when to play a weak hand, I have made a profit (not quite, I am still down in total, but I am smiling).
Patience young Jedi, you must have patience and fold, until you feel you have the whole table in a box and have the best hand.
(1) Have a starting hand guide. Not necessarily mine, but have ONE. And, stick to it religiously.
(2) Diverge from the guide when you think you have some compelling reasons to do so. In post-game analysis, ask yourself if you were right. If you were, great, you're learning. If you weren't, keep studying.
In almost everything I do I have a "baseline." In poker, my starting hand guide is mine. And, I depart from it when I see reasons to do so. Usually, there is no reason to do so.
Casino 2/5 limit Hold 'Em.......12 trips, $100 each trip, down $800, which would have been $1200 (I went last night), but all week I have been reading Dave's book, and I have re-read and re-read the charts, Player Classifications and Basic Lowlimit strategy, over and over and over.
I found this surprising given i've seen you play Rob. I find those limits are so loose at rama that if you play tight they will pay you off. Sitting on the button the AA and it's sometimes capped before it even gets to you. Occassionally I"ve seen tight 2/5 games but that is a rarity. I remember sitting there one night and the guy next to me asked why I was there because in 1 hour he had only seen me play 1 hand outside of the blinds. Despite everything I think Dave is right as you have to have a guide in your head as to what you are going to play before you raise with the 6 2o just cuz. I also think ring games and tourney's are way different. Suited connectors seem so much more a CASH game hand than something I tend to play in tourney's unless it's a blind steal.
After reading your post I guess I need to add Dave's book to my collection.
Absolutely, I have read it front to back 3 times already (I bought it last week), and have read several pages I found important, over and over. I know that total improvement takes a long time, but after reading Dave's book, and several pages over and over, I noticed an improvement (except for 1 really stupid hand/move/fold) the next time I went to the casino.
I read the book like I used to study for school, I sit or walk and read it aloud, and often repeat things that I feel I really need to learn. I learned that trick from my music teacher. I had probs studying, and she said to me "How do you know all the words to all those songs?" I said "I sing along until I know the song complete, and then I have it", she said "There you go, read your study material out loud like your trying to learn a song".
Anyways, great book, I still have a long way to go in the poker learning world, but after a couple of reads I noticed small (but major to me) improvements.