Hand for discussion
Hand i played on Friday night that has been bothering me. Your thoughts?
There are three players left in a 24 player online tournament.
1st $12,000
2nd $5,500
3rd $3,500
You are the button. You have $6000 chips.
The small blind has $15,000. You do not believe that the SB has any bluff in him. He bets if he thinks he has the best and check and folds if he doesn't.
The big blind has $15,000 The big blind disconnected one hand ago and is till disconnected.
Blinds are $400-800. You are dealt J-8o what do you do? What if you hand was K-To? What if it was A-Ko?
There are three players left in a 24 player online tournament.
1st $12,000
2nd $5,500
3rd $3,500
You are the button. You have $6000 chips.
The small blind has $15,000. You do not believe that the SB has any bluff in him. He bets if he thinks he has the best and check and folds if he doesn't.
The big blind has $15,000 The big blind disconnected one hand ago and is till disconnected.
Blinds are $400-800. You are dealt J-8o what do you do? What if you hand was K-To? What if it was A-Ko?
Comments
1. The BB immediately folds?
2. The BB immediately checks?
3. The BB receives the normal amount of thinking time and then folds?
4. The BB receives the normal amount of thinking time and then checks?
5. The BB receives extra time due to being disconnected and then folds?
6. The BB receives extra time due to being disconnected and then checks?
(7. Something else?)
Same question if you (or the SB) raises, although the only valid cases would be the odd numbered ones.
Bonus question: Is my question even worth asking? That is, might it be worth taking a different action in the different cases?
ScottyZ
I would make it $1,600 to go, a minimum raise, with the intention of:
1. Folding if the SB moves all-in pre-flop.
2. Folding if the SB calls and bets the flop. (If the flop does not help my hand.)
3. Moving all-in if the SB calls and checks the flop.
Folding here seems out of the question. If you would sometimes go for a blind steal, stealing the blinds when the BB is absent is almost automatic. Be careful: if the SB is a Fox, he/she will be able to piece together that you are on an auto-steal.
Your SB does not sound like a Fox, since you described him as ABC.
Your opponent being an ABC player, you wouldn't expect to be able to take him off a lot of chips post-flop on most flops that also give you a good hand. Therefore, limping in with the intention of looking at the flop seems inferior.
However, with your opponent being ABC, "Dave's other favorite play" might be in order: the dreaded limp-steal. If you just limp in, your opponent on the SB will almost surely call. If your ABC opponent then bets out on the flop, you fold and get away for minimal damage. But can't you employ the same post-flop strategy if your opponent flat calls the $1,600 raise? I don't see why not. You have little reason to believe that your straightforward opponent was trapping you pre-flop. (On the other hand, trapping with a true monster is what I would call ABC...)
Perhaps making it $1,600 to go (and playing the flop as above) is something of a souped up version of the limp-steal. It's the steal-steal.
Finally, how about just moving all-in pre-flop? This is certainly not horrible. Risking a big amount of chips to pick up a small amount is balanced out to some degree by the fact that you will very rarely get called.
I forgot to check my hole cards before the analysis above. :cool:
ScottyZ
At first glance I liked limping in here, but that puts you into a delicate position post-flop.... while the SB may not have any "bluff" in him... he didn't get here by being an idiot... A good player will likely bet out on the majority of flops, forcing you to hit the flop in order to continue with the hand. (without risking all your chips)
So a raise is in order... but how much... there's already 1200 in dead money in the pot... a small raise give him odds to call with almost any hand, even a raise to 2000 gives him exactly 2-1 odds so a call is almost automatic...
So I raise all-in....
What if you hand was K-To? What if it was A-Ko?
Same.... I just sweat less/lest with these hands respectively!
#2 call and see the flop.
#3 all in and take the blinds/antes.
Those are straight forward to me
2) k-10o Same scenario but I only raise to 2,000 if SB or BB push me in I fold.
3) AKo all-in...............give me action, I'm willing to gamble.
There is a big jump up in pay. I want to win. The jump to 2nd is nice, but the REAL money jump is to win. So, that's my goal.
Short on chips. Not desperate, but close.
Since the BB is disconnected, this is actually heads up. And, heads up J-8o is a marginal favourite over a random hand (almost 50/50). If I recall correctly, J-7o is right on 50/50. A raise will pot commit me. If he comes over the top I will be forced to call 4600 into a pot of 9200. I could, I suppose, fold to a raise but I don't think it's the right play if I am playing to win.
So, I think that the right play is to move in, or call. Moving in is OK if the SB will only call with a small range of hands. Calling is, I think, the best option in this spot ONLY because the SB is not a bluffer. He may overvalue some hands, but he does not bluff. If the SB has any bluff in him, then calling is gross. Move in or fold. But, I didn't think he had any bluff in the arsenal.
KTo same. Call. AKo is a better hand to move in with since if you are called there are lots of hands that you will beat. Although, again, I probably prefer the call. Only because of the nature of the SB.
I raise to 3000 with J-8o. He raised with K-To. I called and lost. Although, his re-raise does make me wonder if I had him in the right box at all.
I think that moving is the best bet since if SB is truely SB they will fold a large number hands that will give you bigger problems post flop (ie. small pairs, broadway, suited contectors). Calling is dangerous and I think that unless you are near 100% sure you can outplay your opponent post flop the risk is not worth the reward. By pushing all-in you will win the blinds too often to justify being out flopped and not knowing it...again though I am very interested on how you proceed on the flop.
Dave you probabbly didi have him in the right box. But is it possible that your opponent was a strong enough player to have put you in a box aswell, and new that you would make a move with wide variety of hands?
The limp steal risks 1600 to win 1600.
The move in risks 6000 to win 1200.
The limp steal has some additional risk attached to it, but I think it's a great play in some situations.
A lot of the hands that will cause me trouble post flop he will raise with pre-flop (eg AK and small pair). So, I avoid the situations in which he WOULD have called my all-in bet.
All are assuming you limp and the SB completes BB folds...
Flop comes 8 high, SB bets into you...what's your action?
Flop comes J high, SB bets into you...what's your aciton?
Flop comes 10, 9, X SB bets into you...what's your action?
Flop comes AAJ or AA8, KKJ or KK8 SB bets into you...what's your action?
Flop comes AKJ or AK8 SB bets into you...what's your action?
All the above and SB checks to you?
These are some tough spots and there other tough ones. I again am very interest to hear your thoughts here.
*I mention safest since it seems you want to minize your overall variance at the end of the hand.
Wader
So... we both miss. He checks, I bet and win.
He misses and I hit. He checks, I bet and win.
These two account for about 2/3 of flops.
We both hit. Usually he will win (because my J8o is too damn weak).
He hits and I miss. He bets and wins (I take only a small risk).
Applying that thinking...
Move in/call.
Move in/call
Probably fold.
Fold the J pairs and call the 8 pairs.
Fold.
If I have no hand, bet. But, in these cases where I have "something" then I might check and see what happens on the turn. Given that I think he will not bet without "something" I am not looking to induce a bluff, I am looking to define my hand be checking and seeing what he does on the turn.
The point is that I want to avoid confrontation for all my chips, but give myself the opportunity to chip up. IN the case of J8o heads up (the case here) it is too strong to simply fold.