I actually had someone in a job interview tell me that he was making a poker bot (it was even on his resume!). We asked him about legalities, ethics, etc. Since he seemed to have no concept of the above, we decided not to hire him
Interesting article. I didn't know about the WSOP for bots. Does anyone think this is a good idea? It kind of made my flesh crawl a little bit.
I'm amazed by this Gabriel guy ...... openly admits he's a lousy poker player so he's going to build a bot to play online for him....... ewwww. I wonder if they used his real name in the article ..... there should be a bounty placed on his head immediately.
Interesting point that was made about how gaming sites will combat this ...... and do they even care to, as they get to keep taking the rake no matter who's playing.
I actually had someone in a job interview tell me that he was making a poker bot (it was even on his resume!). We asked him about legalities, ethics, etc. Since he seemed to have no concept of the above, we decided not to hire him
I'm a computer programmer, so I actually considered entering this. However, even if you win, getting that kind of "fame" doesn't sound too promising (if you plan on actually playing online ).
Paul Phillips has an interesting blog. He talked recently about how someday soon--and it won't be long--bots will be better poker players than humans. Online poker will be taken over by bots, so people will stop playing. Of course, the online sites won't like this one bit, so they will develop counter-measures.
One such counter-measure he thought of will be this: you'll be playing some online poker, and at random times throughout your session a box will pop up on your screen. It will ask you a number of simple, multiple-choice questions that a computer can't answer. Off the top of my head: 'what colour is the sky on a nice day?', 'how many wheels does a standard car have?', etc...
I guess the theory is that if you can't/don't answer these questions in a specific time frame, you'll get booted from the game and your account will be flagged.
If it ever comes to that--and it may--I have no problem answering a few of these questions throughout the night to ensure that I'm playing against human beings.
Online poker will be taken over by bots, so people will stop playing. Of course, the online sites won't like this one bit, so they will develop counter-measures.
One such counter-measure he thought of will be this: you'll be playing some online poker, and at random times throughout your session a box will pop up on your screen. It will ask you a number of simple, multiple-choice questions that a computer can't answer. Off the top of my head: 'what colour is the sky on a nice day?', 'how many wheels does a standard car have?', etc...
This is great - 2 of my favorite things (computers and poker) together
The poker sites cannot fight the bots and win. Challange-response is easy to bypass for email filters for spammers, and likewise, it will be easy for bot programmers to overcome any poker CR mechanism. Just like with viruses and spam, it's a move/counter-move game, but the attacker always has a "window" where the defender is vulnerable. Once the defender increases security, they simply work around it, and round-and-round they go.
I think people (newbies/casual players) will accept it and play with the bots. The only resolution I can see for those who don't want to play with bots will be to have a list of people they are willing to play with, and simply not allow unknown players (human or bot) at their tables.
As a slightly different slant, does anyone really worry about playing against bots? From what I've seen, any medium-skill player is pretty much in top 10% of online players, and can "eat the fish" over time. Even the best bot would simply be a challenge like any other good player, but wouldn't automatically be king-of-the-hill. They'd just be another bankroll to play with (IMHO). Personally, I'd love to play them, since a smart bot would be easier to read and play against than a stupid human (the normal "all-in" fest's).
I was just thinking....if you tracked players you suspected were bots, wouldn't they be far easier to bluff (once you knew their tendencies) than a human, since you could predict their reaction in situations?
BUT... they are building bots with AI. Think about it, if they tracked your play, they could model the type of player you are over time and decide when you are most likely bluffing. They can also determine when *they* should bluff.
Also, the bot you are playing today isn't necessarily the bot you were playing yesterday or the day before but the knowledge *can* be shared between them. Storage is cheap. Each day they'd get a little better. So you can't track them but they can track you.
I hope we are still a ways off from this all working. I hope...
Lets face it, bots can track/store information about you and use it against you much much easier than a human and in the long run will be able to predict your every move. One way around it is asking a general question at the table u play, where you all from.. a bot won't be able to answer random questions and you could tell that way.
I guess the theory is that if you can't/don't answer these questions in a specific time frame, you'll get booted from the game and your account will be flagged.
I guess the "post-and-fold" for AA in the CPF tournaments will be a dying breed once this is implemented
I hope we are still a ways off from this all working. I hope...
It's possible today, based on what I've seen (poker AI research, neural net programming, cheap processors, grid computing, etc.). The only question is whether somebody capable is also motivated. The scariest part is that most of those capable would be motivated not by the possible reward ($$$) but simply being able to say "I did it".
Lets face it, bots can track/store information about you and use it against you much much easier than a human and in the long run will be able to predict your every move.
Not a chance. While they can store info and process quickly, humans are simply unpredictable. A bot which has watched us play for 10 years doesn't know that we had a fight with our wife, got a bigger bankroll through an inheritance, or is trying to quit smoking (etc., etc.). Half the time I don't know what I'm going to do!
One way around it is asking a general question at the table u play, where you all from.. a bot won't be able to answer random questions and you could tell that way.
There are already simplistic AI's that can carry on a conversation like this, so a bot could too. And learning english is far more difficult than learning "e-english". (and based on the "smalltalk" at most tables, it ain't rocket science)
One way around it is asking a general question at the table u play, where you all from.. a bot won't be able to answer random questions and you could tell that way.
I often play online with the chat turned off. Sometimes, I'm just playing multiple tables, so it's more practical (as it provides a small visual "next hand" signal) to have only dealer chat on. But other than the practical reasons, I've basically just gotten tired of hearing 3-year olds whining about bad beats. Plus I waste too much mental energy trying to figure out which of the "nh" comments are sarcastic.
I wonder if people are trying this sort of barebones Turing test on me, and concluding that I am a bot. :cool:
With technology as it currently stands, the main disadvantage that bots face is their limited ability to recognize patterns.
Sure bots can collect gobs of information as they play. So can PokerTracker (or similar). Converting the data into useful opponent playing style information is something that IMO humans, even with their inferior data collection/storage skills, can do better than bots.
Interesting point that was made about how gaming sites will combat this ...... and do they even care to, as they get to keep taking the rake no matter who's playing.
Sure, but they get more rake as more people play, so they have a vested interest in keeping players on site. If they don't act to restrict bots, then the majority of non-bot players will simply stop playing, and after that the less successful bots will also stop, and so on until there's only a few top quality bots and players shuffling money around.
In addition to some kind of challenge-response system, I think one of the keys to stopping bots is to stop allowing the accumulation of data on any players outside of a particular game. If you prevent a bot from associating long term patterns to particular players, you remove a big part of its decision-making data and leave it with solid odds-based play - it'll still win against a typical low-limit table, but won't threaten the high limits. Of course, this would also hurt the players who rely on PokerTracker and equivalents, but c'est la vie.
One way around it is asking a general question at the table u play, where you all from.. a bot won't be able to answer random questions and you could tell that way.
There are already simplistic AI's that can carry on a conversation like this, so a bot could too. And learning english is far more difficult than learning "e-english". (and based on the "smalltalk" at most tables, it ain't rocket science)
But look at the types of challenges places like eBay or register.com make you do. Apparently machines aren't able to handle these challenges. This wouldn't be a chat thing, it would be part of the sign-on process. I'd also recommend it pop-up randomly between hands to make it difficult for humans to assist the bots.
My 2 cents worth on the Poker Bot discussion: I personally wouldn't mind if there were 4 or 5 bots sitting at my table. Afterall, a bot has to be programmed by someone, and if the computer guys are not world-class poker players then I can't see them beating WSOP players.
The problem I see is that the bots could become good enough to beat the losers at low and middle-limit games. The weak players may deduce that these new "players" are so much better than them, that they quit for good. Then we'd have a problem.
This is very unethical.. and will eventually slow down the popularity of poker in the future.. worst case senerio would be if dot com companies develop these bots to play on their site.. then u get into a whole new legal debate..
This is very unethical.. and will eventually slow down the popularity of poker in the future.. worst case senerio would be if dot com companies develop these bots to play on their site.. then u get into a whole new legal debate..
I agree... and who's to say they haven't already?
If bots are playing/allowed, then the sit should state that they do and bots should have seperate naming conventions so people know they're up against robots
Comments
I'm amazed by this Gabriel guy ...... openly admits he's a lousy poker player so he's going to build a bot to play online for him....... ewwww. I wonder if they used his real name in the article ..... there should be a bounty placed on his head immediately.
Interesting point that was made about how gaming sites will combat this ...... and do they even care to, as they get to keep taking the rake no matter who's playing.
So that wasn't a good idea?
An interesting comment from Tom McEvoy when he played against the computer "ORAC" (http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_magazine/archives/?a_id=13299&m_id=64):
The fact that I drew out on the computer with the worst hand proves that ORAC is only human, just like the rest of us
One such counter-measure he thought of will be this: you'll be playing some online poker, and at random times throughout your session a box will pop up on your screen. It will ask you a number of simple, multiple-choice questions that a computer can't answer. Off the top of my head: 'what colour is the sky on a nice day?', 'how many wheels does a standard car have?', etc...
I guess the theory is that if you can't/don't answer these questions in a specific time frame, you'll get booted from the game and your account will be flagged.
If it ever comes to that--and it may--I have no problem answering a few of these questions throughout the night to ensure that I'm playing against human beings.
This is great - 2 of my favorite things (computers and poker) together
The poker sites cannot fight the bots and win. Challange-response is easy to bypass for email filters for spammers, and likewise, it will be easy for bot programmers to overcome any poker CR mechanism. Just like with viruses and spam, it's a move/counter-move game, but the attacker always has a "window" where the defender is vulnerable. Once the defender increases security, they simply work around it, and round-and-round they go.
I think people (newbies/casual players) will accept it and play with the bots. The only resolution I can see for those who don't want to play with bots will be to have a list of people they are willing to play with, and simply not allow unknown players (human or bot) at their tables.
As a slightly different slant, does anyone really worry about playing against bots? From what I've seen, any medium-skill player is pretty much in top 10% of online players, and can "eat the fish" over time. Even the best bot would simply be a challenge like any other good player, but wouldn't automatically be king-of-the-hill. They'd just be another bankroll to play with (IMHO). Personally, I'd love to play them, since a smart bot would be easier to read and play against than a stupid human (the normal "all-in" fest's).
The issue of bluffing is an interesting one. How easy would they be to bluff, and how often would they themselves try it?
Here's my general, uninformed, sweeping statement: I'd rather play a NL tournament or SNG against a bot than a limit cash game.
Agreed. Why? Bots are fish.
ScottyZ
Also, the bot you are playing today isn't necessarily the bot you were playing yesterday or the day before but the knowledge *can* be shared between them. Storage is cheap. Each day they'd get a little better. So you can't track them but they can track you.
I hope we are still a ways off from this all working. I hope...
I guess the "post-and-fold" for AA in the CPF tournaments will be a dying breed once this is implemented
Not a chance. While they can store info and process quickly, humans are simply unpredictable. A bot which has watched us play for 10 years doesn't know that we had a fight with our wife, got a bigger bankroll through an inheritance, or is trying to quit smoking (etc., etc.). Half the time I don't know what I'm going to do!
There are already simplistic AI's that can carry on a conversation like this, so a bot could too. And learning english is far more difficult than learning "e-english". (and based on the "smalltalk" at most tables, it ain't rocket science)
I often play online with the chat turned off. Sometimes, I'm just playing multiple tables, so it's more practical (as it provides a small visual "next hand" signal) to have only dealer chat on. But other than the practical reasons, I've basically just gotten tired of hearing 3-year olds whining about bad beats. Plus I waste too much mental energy trying to figure out which of the "nh" comments are sarcastic.
I wonder if people are trying this sort of barebones Turing test on me, and concluding that I am a bot. :cool:
With technology as it currently stands, the main disadvantage that bots face is their limited ability to recognize patterns.
Sure bots can collect gobs of information as they play. So can PokerTracker (or similar). Converting the data into useful opponent playing style information is something that IMO humans, even with their inferior data collection/storage skills, can do better than bots.
ScottyZ
Sure, but they get more rake as more people play, so they have a vested interest in keeping players on site. If they don't act to restrict bots, then the majority of non-bot players will simply stop playing, and after that the less successful bots will also stop, and so on until there's only a few top quality bots and players shuffling money around.
In addition to some kind of challenge-response system, I think one of the keys to stopping bots is to stop allowing the accumulation of data on any players outside of a particular game. If you prevent a bot from associating long term patterns to particular players, you remove a big part of its decision-making data and leave it with solid odds-based play - it'll still win against a typical low-limit table, but won't threaten the high limits. Of course, this would also hurt the players who rely on PokerTracker and equivalents, but c'est la vie.
http://onlinepokersites.bravehost.com/cheat_info.html
If so, we're screwed.
SkyNet raises 200
SkittlePoker pushes All-In
SkyNet has 10 seconds to respond
*beep* SkyNet, it's your turn
SkyNet calls and becomes self aware
SP
The problem I see is that the bots could become good enough to beat the losers at low and middle-limit games. The weak players may deduce that these new "players" are so much better than them, that they quit for good. Then we'd have a problem.
I agree... and who's to say they haven't already?
If bots are playing/allowed, then the sit should state that they do and bots should have seperate naming conventions so people know they're up against robots