What to do when you don't catch any flop?
Okay, I apologize if this is a lame question or if I am too vague but I wonder if I am being too passive and not handling this type of situation properly. Looking for some advise, here's the scenario:
I play a lot of on-line 0.50/1.00 (I know this is a very low stakes game but at this time it is what I can afford to lose and at my level of game I don't feel ready to move up yet.)
Here are two common situations I find myself in...looking for opinions:
Early to mid position:
get dealt ATo
call .50
let's say at least the blinds and perhaps another player call, no pre-flop raises.
flop comes something like 5, 9, J rainbow
I check
One player bets out.
I fold.
Late position:
get dealt A
: Q :
raise pre-flop to 1.00
get 2-3 callers
flop comes something like 3: , 9 :h: , K :d:
there is a raise in front of me
I fold.
In the first situation, I think in the long run folding the hand is best...I'll just bleed chips hoping for an A and even if I hit an A is my T a big enough kicker?
In situation 2 however I wonder if I am being far too passive in folding to the raise...but sometimes I find myself 'chasing' hands and bleeding chips and I am trying to avoid those situations?
I appreciate any comments you may have, I highly regard this forum and it's members for their knowledge, opinions, and thoughtful criticism.
Big E.
I play a lot of on-line 0.50/1.00 (I know this is a very low stakes game but at this time it is what I can afford to lose and at my level of game I don't feel ready to move up yet.)
Here are two common situations I find myself in...looking for opinions:
Early to mid position:
get dealt ATo
call .50
let's say at least the blinds and perhaps another player call, no pre-flop raises.
flop comes something like 5, 9, J rainbow
I check
One player bets out.
I fold.
Late position:
get dealt A
: Q :raise pre-flop to 1.00
get 2-3 callers
flop comes something like 3
: , 9 :h: , K :d:there is a raise in front of me
I fold.
In the first situation, I think in the long run folding the hand is best...I'll just bleed chips hoping for an A and even if I hit an A is my T a big enough kicker?
In situation 2 however I wonder if I am being far too passive in folding to the raise...but sometimes I find myself 'chasing' hands and bleeding chips and I am trying to avoid those situations?
I appreciate any comments you may have, I highly regard this forum and it's members for their knowledge, opinions, and thoughtful criticism.
Big E.
Comments
Don't fold overcards to a single bet in a large pot (say around 8 to 1 on your money)
In the first situation you described, I'd fold.. I don't like my cards much when the board flops higher than my lower card and it's a small pot with no preflop raise. Win the big pots.
In the second hand it's very situational. I'd fold if it was RAISED to me.. BUT if it was a single bet to me and I would close the action on the flop (or I know that a passive is next to act and won't raise very often), I'd call to see what the turn brings. You'd be getting somewhere between 9 to 1 to 11 to 1 to call the flop and your discounted ace (maybe even give the queen an out depending on who raised) along with your runner flush and backdoor straight draws give you enough outs.
Personally, I hate limping with this hand in bad position. Â It's an OK hand if it isn't raised, but a nightmare if it is and you have no idea if a raise is coming when you have no posiition. Â I fold this preflop.
2nd situation:
With the K on the flop you only have one overcard. Â The pot IS bigger and in this specific case, at least you have some chance to pick up the nut flush draw on the turn. Â That being said I still fold this most of the time (probably well over 90%). Â You missed, get over it and wait for the next time. Â The only time I might make an exception is a super aggressive player that bluffs frequently, and even still he could have you beat with a 3, 9, small pocket or less likely a K. Â If you have a typical LPLL player ask yourself, "Would this player bet into a preflop raiser without at least top pair here?". Â If the answer is "No" then it's an easy fold.
One thing I would watch out for is constantly folding when you don't make top pair after preflop raising.. Even the passive guys will start taking shots at you..
The only exception might be the AQs with all of those backdoor nut draws IF you had many more opponents in, and probably for a single bet only. The reason, which has already been mentioned, is that the size of the pot (and potential pot) might be big enough.
Profits in LPLLHE primarily come from the chasers, so don't be one yourself. :cool:
ScottyZ
Preflop yes, postflop no.
Ever seen someone fold for 1 bet preflop? Didn't think so.
At $.50 - $1.00 never, at $2-$4 sometimes. Either which way it makes them think you have a really good hand and then they may check the flop if think either you caught something of have something better then them. Plus with one caller in front depending if they call or raise you will also give you info on the type of hand they have as well. Either which way raise preflop will give you more options post flop.
But in the situation above I would have folded both times.
Right. There are a bazillion reasons why you should open raise if you are going to play a hand..
I just wanted to make it clear that raising to fold out the early position limpers isn't one of them.
This I have to get better at...I think I over simplify pot odds and I need to do a better job of this, thank you.
So true Scotty, thank you...and I am getting better at not chasing hands when I have little money in and the pots are small...as BBC said, 'win the big pots'.
Big E.
True, but I think sometimes it just like people can see your hole cards and are gunning at you (some of those brutal sessions where no flop hits you). I always sort of seem to feel weak-tight when I fold after preflop raising. I certainly wouldn't ALWAYS fold when I fail to make top pair or better. Ie. I raise 88 pf and get a flop of T-5-2 I would likely bet or raise, assuming I have a good chance of having the best hand. I may do the same with 2 overs or some type of draw. But with just one over I like my chances much less and tend to favor folding. (although I guess there is a backdoor flush and straight draw here as well). As you said it's highly situational, and I would be more inclined to call if it closed the betting and would favor folding much more if there were opponents left to act behind me (especially if they're aggressive ones).
Disagree: fold AQs
You have to put yourself in the other person's seat and figure why would they raise? What cards do they have?
AK no they would have raised preflop
KK no same
AA no same
Ok so did they flop 2pr or trips? Why would they raise? There is no straight draw or flush draw yet. If I had these cards I would check or call and hope that the late position player (you) would raise and THEN reraise. A raise with these kinds of cards only discourages more betting and loses players. If you raise preflop, 95% of the time you MUST raise postflop and keep the lead. So I would expect you to raise and then I can max my bets. This is not really a dangerous flop yet for you.
Post flop I would raise most pots with second pair, to find out exactly what the other players are holding. After all the flop bet is half the price of the turn and river. Think about it. 1st guy bets, I raise with a pr of 9s, late position guy folds. I just got rid of a dangerous hand. 1st guy folds, I take down an easy pot. 1st guy calls, at worst I'm likely heads up against a pr of Ks. I get to see the turn card and maybe I get a free card if 1st guy checks. However, late position guy reraises me. I fold. If someone bets back at me then I KNOW they have K or better.
So back to you. Any of these hands, even IF they have 2 pr or trips you beat them with the backdoor straight or flush. If all the players had simply called to you, do you call, raise or fold? Or course you want to see the next card but with all callers it is not necessary for you to get that flush or straight draw, matching the A would probably suit you. If you just call in THIS situation you could be up against the 2pr or trips and you wouldn't even know. If you catch the A on the turn you would probably call it down through the river and take a huge loss. You MUST raise this situation.
Ok so instead of just callers now you have a raiser. You have put $1 into the pot. If everyone had just called to you I KNOW you would have raised, so that is another $1. However since it was raised you want to fold? No way. Really it will cost you another $.50 to make a RERAISE. Then you will KNOW what the other players have. You MUST know what everyone is playing by the end of the flop betting because turn and river bets are 2x as expensive. If you are called then you know that they have K with a good kicker, otherwise they would fear you have at least K with a better kicker because of your preflop raise. If you are raised again then you know they must have 2 pr or trips and you can safely fold having put them in their box. The advantage of doing this is if you are only called after the reraise an A on the turn would probably give you the best hand. You might even get the people with the 2pr or trips to fold, thinking you raised preflop with KK. If you put a scare into them then you might induce them to check the turn, giving you a free card if you got the straight or flush draw on the turn. This actually then SAVES you $.50 over just calling the flop and having to call a turn bet and gives you the chance to take down a monster. If nothing comes on the river and they bet then you can fold, having spent exactly $.50 over what you would have spent had there been no postflop raise.
If you make it to the turn and a flush or straight draw card falls, since you are in late position wouldn't you call that?Â
At a minimum there is $3 preflop, $3.50 flop and $1 turn = $7.50 in the pot, probably a fair bit more. You are getting odds of 7.5:1 at least and a flush is 4.1:1, the straight 10.5:1, so you might get pot odds on that as well. Factor in the river bets as well, someone else may make a flush or the guy with trips may still bet or if J10 falls it might make someone a straight to the K.
Also think about this: imagine yourself with a nice 2pr flop, say K9. However there was a late position preflop raise. On the flop someone bets and you raise. Now that late position guy reraises. Ok you have to put him on a K with a good kicker at least if not AK or KK or maybe trip 9s. So you call. Now a 10JQ or A falls on the board. You bet and get raised again. Jesus you have to think that you you are really going to get beat bad here. Your 2pr probably aren't good anymore because that late position guy may have K10, KJ, KQ or AK or KK. You throw them away or swallow hard and call that bet. Or a backdoor flush card falls, you bet, late position guy just calls. River comes and late position guy flips up Trip Q or AA33 or a straight or flush or on and on...Do you see the pressure you put on that guy because of your pre and post flop raises? What does this cost you? FIFTY CENTS. If you get reraised or miss the turn you throw em away. What did you save by folding? ONE BUCK. What do you take down? A nice pot which pays you off for when you do the same thing again later and you miss. Plus it boosts your table image as an agressive player that people will be afraid to play at.
AQJ10 - that's 14 outs which will scare the crap out of your opponent sitting with 2 pr - if you raise
Only trip 3s or 9s will still think they are ahead. Ks are out of the question as discussed unless your opponent is really stupid.
Flush draw - another 9 outs which gives you great pot odds to call the turn, maybe even a free look
23 outs that can give you the win, force a fold or force a check and free card on the turn - if you raise.
Second, call.
You're playing limit, fold when the big bet shows up.
Pulling off a card to see what you can make after the turn is rather helpful.
If the 10/J/K
may suggest that playing the flop fast is generally better.
Back the the main topic, the pot needs to be enormous, and the bet you face small, for "drawing to a draw" to be correct. To be more clear, it is rarely correct to do so. It would be part of a solid LPLLHE strategy to play as if drawing to a draw (with no other reasonable potential) was never correct.
Facing a flop bet and raise and only 3 or 4 opponents, a fold here seems to be in order. Even facing a single bet, a fold on the flop in the AQs hand would probably still be correct.
Finally, trying to put your opponents on hands and deceptive plays using scare cards, both worth considering in "standard" poker, are virtually non-issues in LPLLHE. Don't try to read opponents' hands or decieve your opponents when they are generally playing randomly pre-flop and not paying attention to the game very closely.
It is a costly mistake to make plays which are designed to get your opponents to fold hands in LPLLHE. You will generally get called all the way to the showdown by bottom pair no kicker. A $0.50-$1.00 player laying down 2 pair in this spot would be good evidence that the universe as we know it will shortly come to an end.
The bottom line is that it is incredibly likely that you will have to show the best hand at the showdown here to win this pot. You aren't getting the right price for that proposition.
ScottyZ
Unfortunately you are so right here Scotty, that is one really frustrating downfall of the .50/1.00 game, I think there are a lot of strategies that just don't apply at this level and I think ultimately tight is right, ram and jam when you got the nuts, fold when you know you're beat is pretty much the name of the game. These answers give me tons to think about, I look forward to moving up to higher levels and ultimately better skill levels to compete against, but my game needs to become a bit more solid yet. Thanks again!
I wholeheartedly agree. As Doyle says, it's a sucker who bluffs at a person that you KNOW will call. The suggestion to 3 bet the flop with AQs on that flop to "intimidate" someone with 2 pair or trips is absolutley preposterous. Heck, for those 3 SB that you just invested, you could have called the flop and turn to see what the next 2 cards were for the same price. Rarely if ever will you find a LL player that would lay down 2 pair (or even a K with no kicker) to some sort of scare card. They're going to showdown, end of story.
If, by "frustrating downfall" you meant something like "thing that makes the game wildly profitable", I'd agree with that. :cool:
Yes, definitely. This ain't the World Poker Tour. (And vice versa.)
Hey, come on now. You're stealing my LPLLHE strategy...
Seriously though. It is ultimately no more complicated than this. To once again make my favorite Jesse May reference, in LPLLHE, the skill part is easy. It's handling the luck that counts. A good amount of discipline and a "no tilt" philosophy could almost be just as important a factor in LPLLHE as knowing how to play your cards well. Regardless of trying to rank these against each other in terms of importance, I think I could say for sure that you can't win at LPLLHE having a significant weakness in one of the two areas.
ScottyZ
Actually, yes, that is exactly what I mean most of the time....every once in a while when they draw out on you though, you still have to shake your head and say 'ahhh, come on, seriously!!!'...but there is a lot of profit to be made even at that low level, heck my bankroll has quadrupled over the last 4 months playing that level....but then again, I am a poker whore...well a poker whore in training, the true whore...and possibly my whore-mentor, I cannot name at this time....although he is the pimp daddy!!!!!