Tournament speed and how to play
For discussion....
Here is a portion of an entry from Daniel Negreanu's poker log from way back on Jan 25. This has stuck with my and been a burr in my brain because I think I have something to learn from this. I think I have discovered it. Is there anything here that anyone can see as an apocryphal tournament point. I am not talking abou the way the tournament was structure, I am talking about the way that Daniel is playing.
Here is a portion of an entry from Daniel Negreanu's poker log from way back on Jan 25. This has stuck with my and been a burr in my brain because I think I have something to learn from this. I think I have discovered it. Is there anything here that anyone can see as an apocryphal tournament point. I am not talking abou the way the tournament was structure, I am talking about the way that Daniel is playing.
With 40 players left an average stack was left with very little play. For example: the blinds were 2000-4000 with a 500 ante. If a player raises to say, 16,000 what’s a player with an average stack to do with JJ? An average stack would be a little over 100,000. All he really can do is shove it in.
However, If the blinds were a more appropriate 1000-2000 as they should have been the first raise would have been to 8,000. Now, the player with the JJ has several options:
A) Call and see a flopRe-raise to 25,000 to see where he is at
C) Go all in
***************************************************************
So now that I’m done with my rant I’d like to explain what I’m trying to do to focus. I keep reminding myself over and over, “Just adjust Daniel. There is nothing you can do about it. Whining like a little baby isn’t like you.†While I know that’s all true it still frustrate me to no end. I am REALLY trying to stay positive though despite the fact that the structure is destroying an otherwise excellent tournament.
So I adjusted to playing like a robot like everybody else. Waiting for AA and KK… booooring! J-9 of hearts on the button… muck *sigh*. That’s so disheartening to me. 2-5 of clubs under the gun? Oh brother, guess I have to fold that one too… *sigh*
Again, trying to look on the bright side I’m still in there just below par with 141,500 in chips (par is about 190,000.
Comments
apocryphal(thesaurus)
-mythical
-fictional
-untrue
-legendary
-invented
-made-up
-dubious
-true (Antonym)
I meant it as hard to ascertain but obvious once seen.
I believe that once a tournament has reached the point of (mostly) everyone "adjusting to playing like a robot", this is where my game becomes somewhat worse or loose I guess you could say. I become unfocused, and seem to think that this is a great time to be become overly aggressive. I will play suited connectors (high or low) and pretty much all pockets. I find myself trying to make a good poker hand out of nothing hoping that eventually I will scare the other players out of the pot.
If I am at a table with weak or newer players or players that get nervous, this play style works, but for the most part all it does is steal the blinds. If I am at a table with "PLAYERS", I may steal a few blinds, but soon myself in some deep chip situations, that are costly.
I must say, that this is one thing that I have never let distract me. I have seen many good players get distracted and thrown off their game because of the structure at a certain point of the tournament vs. their chip count. I have learned not to care, short/average or large stacked, I always just try to play the same and pay no attention to who has what or how the structure is actually affecting me.
The one thing that I always do worry about is when it hits "robot" stage. I lose the patience that has gotten me this far, and the train of thought that it took to get me into that mind frame. I will eventualyy lose to better player, but find myself losing to myself a lot.
This is the part that gets me, I know that atleast 80% of good players think this way, but for some reason I feel that my loss of control at this stage of the game is more often than not, beneficial. I would love to train myself to play like that, but half my problem is, for some reason I seem to prefer the excitement of crunch time poker over lasting till the end. Hence, I believe, my best finish in a larger tournament being 3rd.
Dave, I am not sure what you have discovered. But what I have discovered after reading this is, that I am more frustrated with myself as I try to find a way to tweak my game to the next level because I read these articles, believe what they say, but for some reason can't adapt my game to a new format. I always fall back to my regular playing style.
Do I need to lose more money in order to adjust my game? Or, do I just need to learn that I am still in school and have a lot to learn, and must learn it in order to get my game to the next level?
This is probably way off your topic, but after reading yours, I had to spill
Danny's frustration arises from his fear of the move-in player. ALLIN preflop confrontations take away the ability to "outplay" an opponent postflop. In his example below, if he raises preflop with a hand such as KQ, he believes a person with JJ and 100,000 stack will reraise him allin, thus forcing him into a coinflip situation if he calls, or forcing him to fold. Although he is probably correct that most players with 100K and JJ will move in preflop in that situation, it is not an automatic movein. Calling the 16000 preflop bet is only 16% of the opponent's stack, and the opponent can comfortably call here and look to trap Danny if no overcard flops, especially if he has position on Danny. Â
What is there to learn from the below post by Danny N, Dave asks? Obviously, Danny is more comfortable on very deep money, as it allows him to make plays on each and every street, rather than the perceived preflop raise/allin reraise/call or fold situation Danny is implying is the case here (see my post on the difference between PLHE and NLHE in the General Forum for example). But Danny's definition (and most players' opinion IMO) is wrong. 25x BB is not shallow, even with antes in play. Accordingly, if most players feel 25x the BB is shallow, you can take advantage of this thinking by making medium sized reraises of the preflop raiser at will, forcing them to either move allin or fold. The assumption is they will fold often enough for this to be a profitable strategy.
In addition, you can do what I do, (or if you prefer, what Phil Ivey does), and that is if the action is passed to you, open raise preflop to 3x the BB. Since there is 11,000 in the pot preflop, a raise to 12,000 to go is basically an even money proposition. If you win 1/2 the pots uncontested, you will maintain your stack. However, since most players are in move allin or fold mode, you will pick up more than 1/2 the pots uncontested, and will be able to safely fold rag hands to allin reraises. This will allow you to slowly chip up, while maintaining a hyper aggressive, loose image. If you do happen to catch a hand, you are more likely to get paid off, as your aggression is inducing other players to reraise you with lower quality hands than they normally would.  Â
Negarneu said:
With 40 players left an average stack was left with very little play. For example: the blinds were 2000-4000 with a 500 ante. If a player raises to say, 16,000 what’s a player with an average stack to do with JJ? An average stack would be a little over 100,000. All he really can do is shove it in.
However, If the blinds were a more appropriate 1000-2000 as they should have been the first raise would have been to 8,000. Now, the player with the JJ has several options:
A) Call and see a flop
C) Go all in
***************************************************************
So now that I’m done with my rant I’d like to explain what I’m trying to do to focus. I keep reminding myself over and over, “Just adjust Daniel. There is nothing you can do about it. Whining like a little baby isn’t like you.†While I know that’s all true it still frustrate me to no end. I am REALLY trying to stay positive though despite the fact that the structure is destroying an otherwise excellent tournament.
So I adjusted to playing like a robot like everybody else. Waiting for AA and KK… booooring! J-9 of hearts on the button… muck *sigh*. That’s so disheartening to me. 2-5 of clubs under the gun? Oh brother, guess I have to fold that one too… *sigh*
Again, trying to look on the bright side I’m still in there just below par with 141,500 in chips (par is about 190,000.
That I understand , I think that this is what I was implying when I said....
my problem with this line of thinking and playing is this.....
When it gets to this stage of the tournament, I find that maybe I become to aggressive, and lose more than I should trying to force the chips my way.
I guess my question should be, what is to much aggression at this stage? And how do you know when it is more profitable to go into robot stage for awhile?
When the chips are deep, and you play well post-flop, you can play a lot of pre-flop hands.
Or, the same thing said in the negative: When the chips are not deep, you are limited to waiting for quality pre-flop hands, and the use of any post-flop skills you may have may be severely limited.
Am I oversimplifying?
Also interesting was that in the FSN series "Poker at the Plaza" the commentators were continually mentioning that:
1. The stack sizes were generally much deeper than most tournaments at all blind levels.
2. Freedy Deeb and Daniel Negreanu liked to play a lot of hands pre-flop, and often didn't prefer raising pre-flop in many natural looking raising spots.
Looks like playing a lot of hands, and sticking to "small pot poker" pre-flop helped Freddy & Danny finish well into the money in this particular tournament format. :cool:
ScottyZ
Yup. No problem. But, we all knew that right?
What I got from Daniel's post is the point at which chips are shallow.
Yes, it's 25 x BB. I prefer, however to look at it as "the cost of one lap of the button." In this case, 11,000. So, you are around 10 x the cost of a lap. The epiphany, for me, is that at this point (stack < 10 x lap) Daniel feels his BIG weapons are taken away. His big weapons are post flop play. Post flop play is interpretted, by me, to imply limping a lot of hands and calling raises with some seriously speculative implied odds hands.
So, at this point he stops "mucking around" and goes to ABC poker which, I think, includes the "basic steal" as outlined by apryll. Believe me, with a stack this size Daniel does NOT stop stealing blinds. But, it appears, that he turns off his "high variance package."
I found that interesting and educational.
*blush*
Okay. Definitely oversimplifying.
Makes sense. You should factor in the ante. (Maybe I'm on a roll with the obvious statements?)
Interesting. The main revelation for me I think is that I probably need to play a higher variance game in the early stages of tournaments than I may be used to. I'm usually feeling okay chugging along with 25*BB in the early-to-mid stages. Imagine!
Not to say that I have anywhere near the set of post-flop weapons that Danny has. But even my puny post-flop weapons (something like my Wolfenstein 3D pistol compared to Danny's BFG 3000) could probably use the extra stack size breathing room. :cool:
ScottyZ