Calling Big bets... or folding

RedingtonRedington
in Brags, Beats & Variance
This is a no limit question, found a huge hole in my game that is costing me huge. Not sure how to plug it.

A couple of examples;

$100NL

Holding AK in EP
preflop bet of $5 two callers (damn no one raised) so here I am with two trailers;

Flop K76 rainbow

I bet $10 as first to act, one folds and I get reraised all in;

Do you call? there is a set possibily, but KJ/KQ is a real possibilty as well. Im not thinking rocks or jackals, but typical player. If its 67 well Im screwed and thats a possibilty and the reason we all play the sc.

Say you just get called and the turn comes 2, half pot bet by me and then the all in? Whats the move?


$100NL -

You have QQ, in SB. One raiser to $3 in mp, I reraise to $7 and get called.

Flop 3-6-9 rainbow.

Bet$10, other guy goes all in.

Whats your next step?

I am finding there are two schools of thought.

1) The all in means weakness and he wants you to go away.
2) The all in is a value bet and he wants to get paid off. Suspecting his set, or two pair is good and you might call as an aggressive player.


Watching good players online, Im noticing that they only bet with the nutz, and call with winning but not nuts hands.

Board JT988, they only call with TT against someone with the straight. Almost too passive. Or is this a long drawn out way to minimize losses (while minimizing wins)
One thing i notice is they really minimize bad beat losses, but they get drawn out on alot.

One thing I notice about my play is I am constantly winning smaller pots, but losing huge ones. (I von't ve pushed around).

Looking through my hands, top pair vs a set, top pair vs two under pair, or QQ, JJ vs AA KK. Are costing me ALOT in no limit. Which is going back to the question when the money goes in.

Ideas?

Comments

  • BBC ZBBC Z
    Your minimum preflop raises are getting you into trouble postflop because you haven't put any pressure on your opponents to actually define their hand. I mean, a $4 raise with QQ in a $100 NL game is poor, you are giving them the implied odds they need to call with anything and push you around.

    $5 bets with AKs, $4 raises with QQ... thats why you are having trouble.
  • RedingtonRedington
    I may be understating the preflop a bit (but thie is .50/1.00 blinds). I am thinking more about the the post flop.

    Lets say in either case the preflop got to $10-15 which would be reasonable and in relation to the stack size.

    Given the flops, do you call the all in bet? Top pair best kicker, or high over pair.

    Part of the question here is I know that if someone is being aggressive and will bet out at any flop, I can push them off with a reraise with any two cards. What is the defense if your on the other side of the equation? (beisdes just tightening up and playing the nutz...which I think gives away the table captian hat and you lose value)
  • Dave ScharfDave Scharf
    No-limit, MUCH more than limit, is a game of “player categorization.” You need to put your opponents into accurate boxes.

    Having said that, if I have not yet “written the book” then I default to “the usual interpretation.” In other words, I follow scripts (I have a lot more to say about scripts in my coming poker log).
    $100NL

    Holding AK in EP
    preflop bet of $5 two callers (damn no one raised) so here I am with two trailers;
    Contrary to BBC Z, I think your raise here is about right. With a hand like A-K you want to raise enough to limit the field. Raise too much and you kill any action unless it’s from a hand that have you beat.
    Flop K76 rainbow

    I bet $10 as first to act, one folds and I get reraised all in;

    Do you call? there is a set possibily, but KJ/KQ is a real possibilty as well. Im not thinking rocks or jackals, but typical player. If its 67 well Im screwed and thats a possibilty and the reason we all play the sc.
    Woohoo! Touchdown. It’s the flop you want (well, K-7-2 would be better). Do I call? If I do not have my opponent in a box, I call. His bet is TOO big. Most of the time this means he has a hand that does NOT want to get called. Disappoint him. Most players in a $100 no-limit game will slow play a set here (or 7-6). So, odds are that I have the best hand, I call.
    Say you just get called and the turn comes 2, half pot bet by me and then the all in? Whats the move?
    In this case I probably fold. Again, if I don’t have a “read” then I fold. This looks a lot more like a slow played set or 7-6. I feel here that the odds are that I am beat, I fold.
    $100NL -

    You have QQ, in SB. One raiser to $3 in mp, I reraise to $7 and get called.
    I like the size of your raise. I want to encourage the BB to fold, but I want to keep the original raiser in.
    Flop 3-6-9 rainbow.

    Bet$10, other guy goes all in.
    Woohoo. Another mother load flop. Knowing nothing about him, I call. It looks like he does NOT want a call. Disappoint him.
    One thing I notice about my play is I am constantly winning smaller pots, but losing huge ones. (I von't ve pushed around).
    This is a common problem in NL and I suffer from it myself. You do want to find a betting pattern that allows an escape route. In the long run, I favour calling both of the situations you have described because I think in the long run, you will come out ahead. It will, of course, be high variance.
    What is the defense if your on the other side of the equation?

    You defence is to take away THAT play... by calling. If you have an opponent who you will is pushing you around, then don't be pushed off legitimate hands.

    This illustrated the danger and stress of going to war with a multi-dimensional player who has position on you. It can be a geyser of chips, blood, and sweat.
  • ScottyZScottyZ
    Contrary to BBC Z, I think your raise here is about right.

    I think there is some confusion as to what the blinds are.

    The typical blinds for a $100 buy-in NL game are $1-$2, but it was later revealed that the actual blinds for the hands in question were $0.50-$1.00.

    I actually have a poor grasp on what standard pre-flop are like in NL cash games, so I'm actually interested in nailing down these pre-flop comments precisely.

    I'm always a little baffled when I see $1-$2 (blinds) NL hands described as follows: UTG raises to $20, folded to MP who makes it $90 to go, gets 2 callers, etc. I know I'm being silly with this example, but I see open-raises to 10*BB often enough to start wondering if these kind of pre-flop overbets have any kind of reasoning behind them.

    ScottyZ
  • mads777mads777
    1) The all in means weakness and he wants you to go away.
    2) The all in is a value bet and he wants to get paid off. Suspecting his set, or two pair is good and you might call as an aggressive player.

    I think it's all player dependant...do they perceive you as a loose goose that will call big all-in re-raise with TPTK or overpair?
    Are they loose enough to push with Top pair medium kicker in hand 1 or JJ & TT in hand 2?

    And if they do so, I'm sure you'll get tons of other profitable situations to get your money in.

    Personnaly I dont like calling big all-in re-raises on a drawless board with only TPTK or medium overpair.

    I think position is a big factor in these two hands...that why they are so tough to play.

    I'm not sure how to play play these two particular hands, but I'm sure Dave will...

    In the end I think it's all read dependant and if you want to play a high variance or a low variance game...

    But don't be afraid to fold when you think your beat...you're saying you lose alot in these situation...just fold more often...trusting your read

    oops Dave already answered...I didn't look I swear :D

    k, I don't add anything much interesting, oh well... I took the time to write it...
  • apryllshowersapryllshowers
    RESPONSE IN CAPS FOR EASE OF VIEWING

    A couple of examples;

    $100NL

    Holding AK in EP
    preflop bet of $5  two callers (damn no one raised) so here I am with two trailers;

    YOU NEED TO TELL US HOW  DEEP THE MONEY IS FOR YOU AND YOUR 2 OPPONENTS. I WILL ASSUME YOU ALL HAVE ABOUT $100.  WHY DID YOU WANT SOMEONE TO RAISE, SO YOU COULD RERAISE ALLIN?


    Flop K76 rainbow

    I bet $10 as first to act, one folds and I get reraised all in;

    POT IS AT LEAST $15, SO WHY ONLY BET $10 IF YOU ARE AFRAID OF THE RERAISE? IF YOU WANT TO DISCOURAGE SOMEONE FROM MAKING A MOVE, YOU NEED TO BET AT LEAST $20, SO THEY WILL REALIZE YOU ARE COMMITTED TO CALLING A RAISE. OF COURSE, THIS IS ASSUMING YOU ALL HAVE ABOUT $100. IF THE MONEY IS DEEPER THIS ANSWER DOES NOT APPLY.

    Do you call? there is a set possibily, but KJ/KQ is a real possibilty as well. Im not thinking rocks or jackals, but typical player.  If its 67 well Im screwed and thats a possibilty and the reason we all play the sc.

    IN LIGHT OF THE ACTION AND THE UNKNOWN DEPTH OF MONEY, I HAVE TO CALL. IT LOOKS LIKE YOU MADE A PROBE BET AT THE POT, AND YOUR OPPONENT HAS MOVED IN TO PROTECT WHAT HE THINKS IS THE BEST HAND. YOU ARE PROBABLY GOOD, AND I WOULD GO AHEAD AND CALL HIM.


    Say you just get called and the turn comes 2, half pot bet by me and then the all in? Whats the move?

    IF YOU GET CALLED BY 1 PLAYER, I WOULD BE A LITTLE WORRIED HE IS SLOWPLAYING YOU. THERE IS ABOUT $35 IN THE POT, AND YOU BET $18.  OPPONENT MOVES IN FOR SAY $57 MORE. SO YOU HAVE TO CALL $57 INTO A POT OF ABOUT $128. YOU HAVE TOP PAIR TOP KICKER. OPPONENT'S RANGE OF HANDS ARE LIKELY TO BE ANY KING, ANY 2 PAIR OR A SET. SINCE YOU ARE GETTING BETTER THAN 2-1, I THINK YOU HAVE TO CALL. IF HE HAS A SET, SO BE IT.   


    $100NL -

    You have QQ, in SB.   One raiser to $3 in mp, I reraise to $7 and get called.

    AGAIN WE NEE DTO KNOW STACK SIZES HERE.

    Flop 3-6-9 rainbow.

    Bet$10,  other guy goes all in.

    Whats your next step? 

    EASY CALL IMO UNLESS YOU HAVE A DEAD ON READ ON THIS PLAYER AS BEING TIGHT. YOU ARE ONLY BEAT BY AA KK, SET, OR 2 PAIR. AA KK ARE UNLIKELY GIVEN THAT HE DID NOT RERAISE YOU PREFLOP. SO I FIGURE HIM FOR A9, OR A SET. I DO NOT THINK MOST PLAYERS WOULD MOVE IN ON THIS FLOP WITH A SET, SO I PUT HIM ON A9 AND CALL.

    I am finding there are two schools of thought. 

    1) The all in means weakness and he wants you to go away.
    2) The all in is a value bet and he wants to get paid off. Suspecting his set, or two pair is good and you might call as an aggressive player.


    Watching good players online, Im noticing that they only bet with the nutz, and call with winning but not nuts hands.

    YOU ARE ASSUMING THAT BECAUSE THEY WIN THE POTS YOU WATCH, THEY ARE GOOD. THIS IS A FALSE ASSUMPTION. JUDGE A PLAYER BY THE DECISIONS THEY MAKE, NOT THEIR RESULTS IN THE SHORT TERM.

    Board JT988, they only call with TT against someone with the straight. Almost too passive. Or is this a long drawn out way to minimize losses (while minimizing wins)
    One thing i notice is they really minimize bad beat losses, but they get drawn out on alot.

    WHAT WOULD YOU CALL WITH HERE? I WOULD LAY DOWN AN 8 TO AN ALLIN BET UNLESS I WAS  DESPERATELY SHORT.

    One thing I notice about my play is I am constantly winning smaller pots, but losing huge ones. (I von't ve pushed around).

    PRIDE IS COSTING YOU MONEY. SOUNDS LIKE YOU ARE EASY TO READ IF YOU ONLY WIN SMALL POTS BUT LOSE THE BIG ONES.

    Looking through my hands, top pair vs a set,  top pair vs two under pair, or QQ, JJ  vs AA KK.  Are costing me ALOT in no limit. Which is going back to the question when the money goes in.

    Ideas?

    YOU NEED TO LEARN HOW TO PLAY BASED ON THE DEPTH OF THE MONEY AND POT/STACK RATIOS.   
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