Dave's WSOP Adventure May 10
May 10, 2004
Just back from the Casino Yellowhead Western Canadian Poker Classic in Edmonton. Great tournament. Well run. The blinds take the occasional too big jump for the money invested I think but it’s not that bad. For $500+ I would prefer a little more play be put in the tournament.
This tournament marks my last “major†tournament with which to prepare for the WSOP Championship in 12 days. The good news is that with less than two weeks until I put $10K on the line at the WSOP I feel like I am playing the best poker I have ever played. What follows is a description of my play in Edmonton along with thoughts, lessons, and specific hands. I tried hard to treat this tournament like it was the WSOP and play at that level. The first part will, hopefully, be on interest to lay readers. The tournament description after that is probably for “poker geeks†only.
Lesson one: Working on ensuring that I have a routine every hand. I shuffle my cards on the felt before I look at them and repeat to myself “slow down… five fingers.†I know I am capable of playing at a very advanced level when I take the time. My biggest flaw is that I too frequently rush decisions (I did just this last Wednesday at a small tournament in Saskatoon and made a call I should NEVER have made). This little ritual is very helpful. I simply remind myself to slow down and go through my “five finger checklist†every single hand. The second part of the ritual concerns deciding what range of hands I will play them if there is no bet or raise to me – and how I will play them. Will I steal? Will I limp steal? This decision MUST be made before I look at my cards. It keeps me focused.
Lesson two: The first decision in a hand it usually routine so there is little risk of giving up the “what is he thinking about†tell. Later in the hand though, when you need to think about what you are going to do you do not want your opponents to know that you are facing a tough decision. So, you must also spend time thinking about things when your decision is obvious. What I now make a habit of doing is counting down the chips necessary to call a bet and then calculate the odds I am looking at etc etc etc. If I have a routine decision I go through the same motions imagining myself to have bottom pair ace kicker. In other words, even if I know I am going to go all-in I go through the motions of calculating a reasonably tough calculation since it will take me the same amount of time it otherwise would. This is simply a physical habit meant to hide the “let me think†tell.
Lesson three: No matter how well you play you will need some luck along the way… I played very well. I got DEEP into the tournament with a lot of chips and then ran into a wall. No luck when I needed it (frankly I had some bad luck early on too or I might have had a HUGE stack).
Lesson four: Your seat draw matters a lot. I drew table #1 which meant that my table would never be busted. You get to play with players for a long time and really come to understand them. In this case too I felt that ALL of my opponents were passive. I did not think any one of them was capable of a re-steal. This is a HUGE edge. You can steal with impunity because you know if someone comes over the top you have an easy fold. Tables like mine are a tournament dream because you are in a position to slowly grow your stack at almost no risk. Indeed – the entire tournament I was never all-in until the hand that I busted out in.
Lesson five: I am playing well. As well as I am capable. I am being creative and still careful. I have tended to be a little too reckless in the past. This is, mostly, not present anymore. It was a pretty crushing defeat since I think I played very well. I made a couple of nice folds pre-flop along that way (I laid down A-Qs twice, A-Ko once, 9-9 and T-T).
The good news is, I think, that I am playing very well. I have not played the ebb and flow of a 9 hour tournament run any better than this so my spirits are high going to the WSOP next week.
THE TOURNAMENT LEVEL BY LEVEL
Level 6 Blinds $150-300 My stack $10,300
Only one hand of note in this level. Three consecutive hands I raise in late position. On the third occasion I have A-Js. The small-blind who I shall call “bluffer†takes a LONG time to think about it and he calls. It looked to me like a legitimate “think-about-it.†I call this player “bluffer†because I had earlier seen him push a bluff against a player who you should KNOW is not folding on a board that featured four suited cards and a pair. WRONG time to bluff. I cannot put him on a pocket pair since I think that is as automatic call for this player. I also cannot put him on a BIG ace because I think that it would have been an automatic call. I put him on weak two big cards. A hand like K-J. The clop is T-9-4. Bluffer checks I bet. He calls. I now put him on two overcards since I felt pretty sure that he would bet or check raise with any pair or even a big draw. The turn is a 4. I do not believe that this will help him. He checks, I check. I considered taking the pot from him there but I thought I could induce a bluff on the river. The river is a 7 and he make a smallish bet. I call. He shows A-2 and I win the pot when I call (much to the amazement of the table I might add). Had he made a BIG bet on the river I would have folded but I guessed right.
Level 7 Blinds $200-400 My stack $13,500
A new player gets moved to our table. I will call him “sunglasses.†I know nothing about Sunglasses. I limp in with 7-5o in the cutoff. I will frequently make this play if I feel like the two blinds are predictable players. If they both check the flop a bit picks up the pot. If they have a hand then you only risk a single bet. The mistake, in this hand, was limping in before I had a handle on sunglasses. Flop was T-5-2. Sunglasses bet, I called. He bet again on the turn and I folded. My flop call was, I think, my only real mistake of the tournament. I was “applying the wrong tool to the box.†I did not know anything about sunglasses and I was speculating.
Level 8 Blinds $300-600 My stack $14,500
I am late position with A-A. I limp in. Whereas limping in if often VERY suspicious I was happy to do so for a variety of reasons: (1) I do limp some weak hands so my play is well mixed up; (2) There was still a fair amount of players that were limping in frequently; and (3) Sunglasses was again the big-blind. After more observation I felt that he had a tendency to overvalue hands. He was a frequent pre-flop raiser. He was also capable of launching a bluff. I thought that I would be able to take A LOT of chips from him post-flop if he caught top pair. The small blind limped and then Sunglasses double the blind. At this point I did not want to keep the small blind around to I made is $3,000 to go. The small blind folded. Sunglasses called. Flop Q-2-2. Perfect for me. He raised pre-flop. He did NOT have a 2. He did not re-raise my $3K bet so he did NOT have Q-Q. he checked. I checked. Turn 9. He bet $2K I made it $6K and he folded. Too bad he didn’t have anything.
Level 9 Blinds $500-1000 My stack $18,400 Average stack $12,000
A-Ks in the small blind. There is a raise to $2000 and a flat call to me. I made it $8K to go and (surprising to me) both players folded. I thought that one would call. I didn’t want to limp in and hope to hit a flop out of position. I wanted a firm read on where I was at right now. I felt certain that the original raiser would have re-re-raised with A-A or K-K and I would have folded and saved my $10K for battle another day.
Couple of hands later I am two off the button with A-7o. There is one limper who I will call Number One. He frequently limped in and his limps were a dead giveaway for a hand that he wanted to see the flop cheaply. Weak ace, two big cards, small pair. I wanted to isolate him and then steal it from him on the flop. I raise to $3K and all fold. Including Number One. That’s a good result too.
Level 10 Blinds $700-1500 My stack 24,000 Average 16,000
Three hands of note…
I raise in late positron with J-J. The small blind re-raises a negligible amount I have, of course, call. He has 6-6 and spikes a river 6 to win. Ouch but not too big a deal since it was only a $6K loss.
Next lap of the button I limp in with 4-2o in the cutoff (the limp steal again). The small blind calls and the flop is A-8-7 with two suited. Both check, I bet $3K and take down the pot.
The very next hand it is folded to me with A-K. I raise. All fold. I show that hand and announce “same hand I just had. I limped last time I thought I better mix it up and raise.†The table, I think, absolutely believed me. In fact, as new players were moved in the table veterans often told them what a great run of cards I was having…
Level 11 My stack 31,100 Average 18,000
Things have been COOKING. I have nicely adding to me stack, risking little and really feeling in control.
Two hands of note.
I limp in the cutoff (sound familiar?) with A-2o. Sunglasses double the blind and I decide to call. I am not really calling based on hand value but I think that he will bet the flop and not the turn if he has nothing as this has been his patter. If the board is not threatening I am planning on taking it from him on the turn. Flop T-8-4. Sunglasses makes a small bet. I call. Turn is 5. He checks. I bet. I win the pot. Ah… the power of position.
Next hand of note. I am in the big blind. It is folded to the small blind who is thinking. I look at him and say “no shame in folding†which I have said to every small blind this day but never to THIS player because he is new. He says “maybe you will?†I say “I don’t know I haven’t looked at my cards yet.†He raises. I look at my cards and find A-K and re-raise him all-in. He calls. Shows A-J and I win the hand unimproved. The hand is only notable because about five minutes later the player cam back to tell me he was really unimpressed by the angle shot of telling him “I haven’t looked at my cards yet.†I apologized and explained that I honestly had not. I have NEVER put and angle shot on ANYBODY. I never would. Having said that, even if I have looked at my cards I am not sure that I would define this as an angle shot. And, the hand probably plays out the very same anyway. He is too short stacked with too good a hand not to play. I am too big a stack with too good a hand not to call.
Level 12 Blinds $1,500-3,000 My stack $63,000 Average $26,000
I am in great shape. There were 50 players left at this point and my stack is average for 20 players. Very nice. Still a little room to maneuver and I am intending to continue to take advantage of the fact that play is too tight.
Hand one. I raise in late position with Q-Q. Big blind makes a negligible re-raise with I, of course, call. Runner runner flush and I lose the hand.
Hand two. K-Q utg I raise. Very small re-raise by the small blind. I, of course, call. He shows Q-8. Woohoo! River card… 8. Ugh. Both of these hands hurt.
Level 13 Blinds $2,000-4,000 My stack 51,000 Average stack 37,000 35 Players remain
Although I am still about average I can no longer afford to take huge liberties. I single unsuccessful steal will reduce me to average chip status. I decide that I need to tighten up a lot – not as much as everyone else, but enough that any opening raise is being made with cards that figure to have a positive expectation against random hands.
Folded to me on the button with K-Js. I raise. Big blind re-raises a negligible amount and I, of course, call. He has K-K. Ugh. I flop an open straight draw but it doesn’t come in.
Level 14 Blinds $3,000-$6,000 My stack $41,500 Average stack $45,000
I have slipped below average. Not by a significant amount and it doesn’t really matter because the blinds have become oppressive. A standard bring-in raise will be 35% of the average stack. Tragically this is where the skill really goes out of the tournament. You just have to hope to find a hand worth a bring in raise and either (1) get no callers; or (2) get lucky and win the showdown.
I get A-Q UTG. I raise and get re-raised a negligible amount by the small-blind who shows J-J. About as good as I could hope for in that spot but I do not win (in fact, Dave K flopped a set of jacks).
In the very next hand I am the big blind of $6,000 with $8,400 behind. It is folded to the VERY tight small-blind who raises me. I have to call $8,400 into a pot of $20,400. I call blind. He shows Q-Q. I roll over T-3. Flop Q-9-3 and IGHN.
Just back from the Casino Yellowhead Western Canadian Poker Classic in Edmonton. Great tournament. Well run. The blinds take the occasional too big jump for the money invested I think but it’s not that bad. For $500+ I would prefer a little more play be put in the tournament.
This tournament marks my last “major†tournament with which to prepare for the WSOP Championship in 12 days. The good news is that with less than two weeks until I put $10K on the line at the WSOP I feel like I am playing the best poker I have ever played. What follows is a description of my play in Edmonton along with thoughts, lessons, and specific hands. I tried hard to treat this tournament like it was the WSOP and play at that level. The first part will, hopefully, be on interest to lay readers. The tournament description after that is probably for “poker geeks†only.
Lesson one: Working on ensuring that I have a routine every hand. I shuffle my cards on the felt before I look at them and repeat to myself “slow down… five fingers.†I know I am capable of playing at a very advanced level when I take the time. My biggest flaw is that I too frequently rush decisions (I did just this last Wednesday at a small tournament in Saskatoon and made a call I should NEVER have made). This little ritual is very helpful. I simply remind myself to slow down and go through my “five finger checklist†every single hand. The second part of the ritual concerns deciding what range of hands I will play them if there is no bet or raise to me – and how I will play them. Will I steal? Will I limp steal? This decision MUST be made before I look at my cards. It keeps me focused.
Lesson two: The first decision in a hand it usually routine so there is little risk of giving up the “what is he thinking about†tell. Later in the hand though, when you need to think about what you are going to do you do not want your opponents to know that you are facing a tough decision. So, you must also spend time thinking about things when your decision is obvious. What I now make a habit of doing is counting down the chips necessary to call a bet and then calculate the odds I am looking at etc etc etc. If I have a routine decision I go through the same motions imagining myself to have bottom pair ace kicker. In other words, even if I know I am going to go all-in I go through the motions of calculating a reasonably tough calculation since it will take me the same amount of time it otherwise would. This is simply a physical habit meant to hide the “let me think†tell.
Lesson three: No matter how well you play you will need some luck along the way… I played very well. I got DEEP into the tournament with a lot of chips and then ran into a wall. No luck when I needed it (frankly I had some bad luck early on too or I might have had a HUGE stack).
Lesson four: Your seat draw matters a lot. I drew table #1 which meant that my table would never be busted. You get to play with players for a long time and really come to understand them. In this case too I felt that ALL of my opponents were passive. I did not think any one of them was capable of a re-steal. This is a HUGE edge. You can steal with impunity because you know if someone comes over the top you have an easy fold. Tables like mine are a tournament dream because you are in a position to slowly grow your stack at almost no risk. Indeed – the entire tournament I was never all-in until the hand that I busted out in.
Lesson five: I am playing well. As well as I am capable. I am being creative and still careful. I have tended to be a little too reckless in the past. This is, mostly, not present anymore. It was a pretty crushing defeat since I think I played very well. I made a couple of nice folds pre-flop along that way (I laid down A-Qs twice, A-Ko once, 9-9 and T-T).
The good news is, I think, that I am playing very well. I have not played the ebb and flow of a 9 hour tournament run any better than this so my spirits are high going to the WSOP next week.
THE TOURNAMENT LEVEL BY LEVEL
Level 6 Blinds $150-300 My stack $10,300
Only one hand of note in this level. Three consecutive hands I raise in late position. On the third occasion I have A-Js. The small-blind who I shall call “bluffer†takes a LONG time to think about it and he calls. It looked to me like a legitimate “think-about-it.†I call this player “bluffer†because I had earlier seen him push a bluff against a player who you should KNOW is not folding on a board that featured four suited cards and a pair. WRONG time to bluff. I cannot put him on a pocket pair since I think that is as automatic call for this player. I also cannot put him on a BIG ace because I think that it would have been an automatic call. I put him on weak two big cards. A hand like K-J. The clop is T-9-4. Bluffer checks I bet. He calls. I now put him on two overcards since I felt pretty sure that he would bet or check raise with any pair or even a big draw. The turn is a 4. I do not believe that this will help him. He checks, I check. I considered taking the pot from him there but I thought I could induce a bluff on the river. The river is a 7 and he make a smallish bet. I call. He shows A-2 and I win the pot when I call (much to the amazement of the table I might add). Had he made a BIG bet on the river I would have folded but I guessed right.
Level 7 Blinds $200-400 My stack $13,500
A new player gets moved to our table. I will call him “sunglasses.†I know nothing about Sunglasses. I limp in with 7-5o in the cutoff. I will frequently make this play if I feel like the two blinds are predictable players. If they both check the flop a bit picks up the pot. If they have a hand then you only risk a single bet. The mistake, in this hand, was limping in before I had a handle on sunglasses. Flop was T-5-2. Sunglasses bet, I called. He bet again on the turn and I folded. My flop call was, I think, my only real mistake of the tournament. I was “applying the wrong tool to the box.†I did not know anything about sunglasses and I was speculating.
Level 8 Blinds $300-600 My stack $14,500
I am late position with A-A. I limp in. Whereas limping in if often VERY suspicious I was happy to do so for a variety of reasons: (1) I do limp some weak hands so my play is well mixed up; (2) There was still a fair amount of players that were limping in frequently; and (3) Sunglasses was again the big-blind. After more observation I felt that he had a tendency to overvalue hands. He was a frequent pre-flop raiser. He was also capable of launching a bluff. I thought that I would be able to take A LOT of chips from him post-flop if he caught top pair. The small blind limped and then Sunglasses double the blind. At this point I did not want to keep the small blind around to I made is $3,000 to go. The small blind folded. Sunglasses called. Flop Q-2-2. Perfect for me. He raised pre-flop. He did NOT have a 2. He did not re-raise my $3K bet so he did NOT have Q-Q. he checked. I checked. Turn 9. He bet $2K I made it $6K and he folded. Too bad he didn’t have anything.
Level 9 Blinds $500-1000 My stack $18,400 Average stack $12,000
A-Ks in the small blind. There is a raise to $2000 and a flat call to me. I made it $8K to go and (surprising to me) both players folded. I thought that one would call. I didn’t want to limp in and hope to hit a flop out of position. I wanted a firm read on where I was at right now. I felt certain that the original raiser would have re-re-raised with A-A or K-K and I would have folded and saved my $10K for battle another day.
Couple of hands later I am two off the button with A-7o. There is one limper who I will call Number One. He frequently limped in and his limps were a dead giveaway for a hand that he wanted to see the flop cheaply. Weak ace, two big cards, small pair. I wanted to isolate him and then steal it from him on the flop. I raise to $3K and all fold. Including Number One. That’s a good result too.
Level 10 Blinds $700-1500 My stack 24,000 Average 16,000
Three hands of note…
I raise in late positron with J-J. The small blind re-raises a negligible amount I have, of course, call. He has 6-6 and spikes a river 6 to win. Ouch but not too big a deal since it was only a $6K loss.
Next lap of the button I limp in with 4-2o in the cutoff (the limp steal again). The small blind calls and the flop is A-8-7 with two suited. Both check, I bet $3K and take down the pot.
The very next hand it is folded to me with A-K. I raise. All fold. I show that hand and announce “same hand I just had. I limped last time I thought I better mix it up and raise.†The table, I think, absolutely believed me. In fact, as new players were moved in the table veterans often told them what a great run of cards I was having…
Level 11 My stack 31,100 Average 18,000
Things have been COOKING. I have nicely adding to me stack, risking little and really feeling in control.
Two hands of note.
I limp in the cutoff (sound familiar?) with A-2o. Sunglasses double the blind and I decide to call. I am not really calling based on hand value but I think that he will bet the flop and not the turn if he has nothing as this has been his patter. If the board is not threatening I am planning on taking it from him on the turn. Flop T-8-4. Sunglasses makes a small bet. I call. Turn is 5. He checks. I bet. I win the pot. Ah… the power of position.
Next hand of note. I am in the big blind. It is folded to the small blind who is thinking. I look at him and say “no shame in folding†which I have said to every small blind this day but never to THIS player because he is new. He says “maybe you will?†I say “I don’t know I haven’t looked at my cards yet.†He raises. I look at my cards and find A-K and re-raise him all-in. He calls. Shows A-J and I win the hand unimproved. The hand is only notable because about five minutes later the player cam back to tell me he was really unimpressed by the angle shot of telling him “I haven’t looked at my cards yet.†I apologized and explained that I honestly had not. I have NEVER put and angle shot on ANYBODY. I never would. Having said that, even if I have looked at my cards I am not sure that I would define this as an angle shot. And, the hand probably plays out the very same anyway. He is too short stacked with too good a hand not to play. I am too big a stack with too good a hand not to call.
Level 12 Blinds $1,500-3,000 My stack $63,000 Average $26,000
I am in great shape. There were 50 players left at this point and my stack is average for 20 players. Very nice. Still a little room to maneuver and I am intending to continue to take advantage of the fact that play is too tight.
Hand one. I raise in late position with Q-Q. Big blind makes a negligible re-raise with I, of course, call. Runner runner flush and I lose the hand.
Hand two. K-Q utg I raise. Very small re-raise by the small blind. I, of course, call. He shows Q-8. Woohoo! River card… 8. Ugh. Both of these hands hurt.
Level 13 Blinds $2,000-4,000 My stack 51,000 Average stack 37,000 35 Players remain
Although I am still about average I can no longer afford to take huge liberties. I single unsuccessful steal will reduce me to average chip status. I decide that I need to tighten up a lot – not as much as everyone else, but enough that any opening raise is being made with cards that figure to have a positive expectation against random hands.
Folded to me on the button with K-Js. I raise. Big blind re-raises a negligible amount and I, of course, call. He has K-K. Ugh. I flop an open straight draw but it doesn’t come in.
Level 14 Blinds $3,000-$6,000 My stack $41,500 Average stack $45,000
I have slipped below average. Not by a significant amount and it doesn’t really matter because the blinds have become oppressive. A standard bring-in raise will be 35% of the average stack. Tragically this is where the skill really goes out of the tournament. You just have to hope to find a hand worth a bring in raise and either (1) get no callers; or (2) get lucky and win the showdown.
I get A-Q UTG. I raise and get re-raised a negligible amount by the small-blind who shows J-J. About as good as I could hope for in that spot but I do not win (in fact, Dave K flopped a set of jacks).
In the very next hand I am the big blind of $6,000 with $8,400 behind. It is folded to the VERY tight small-blind who raises me. I have to call $8,400 into a pot of $20,400. I call blind. He shows Q-Q. I roll over T-3. Flop Q-9-3 and IGHN.
Comments
what's UTG?
what's nutz?
what's limping in?
IGHN = I'm going home now.
UTG = Under the gun (first to act pre-flop)
Nutz (or nuts) = the best possible hand at the time
Limping in = Calling pre-flop
ScottyZ
I'm a BIG fan of the 'limp in the cutoff/steal on the flop' move. You're risking so little for what is very likely to be a long-term profitable play. Of course, this depends on who's in the blinds at the time, but you seemed to have a good read on them.
Also, the button (especially if he's passive) will be less inclined to try for an occasional steal-raise if you've already entered the pot, even if you only limped in.
I've only started to do this recently, and in addition to avoiding giving off tells, I find it relaxes me in a 'Rain Man' kind of way. It's like Dustin Hoffman having to watch Wapner.
In general, your description of the hands you played points to the fact that you give a lot of consideration to what the other guy is holding, and how the other guy plays in most situations. This is obviously a huge part of being a successful poker player, but your specific analysis draws it sharply into focus.
Well done. I'm looking forward to the next report, and I'm sure I'll have more to say about some of the hands you posted once I've given it some more thought.
Regards,
all_aces
ps: That guy who came back to give you grief about angle shooting is a moron. As if he actually came back to the table to talk to you about this. People can get really weird when they get knocked out of a tournament, and by now, he probably realizes he was in the wrong.
Agreed.
If talking at the table is angle shooting,
(a) that's news to me
and
(b) it seems that he's also in violation during that particular hand.
There's no way that saying either that there's no shame in folding, or that you haven't looked at your cards is more or less of an angle shot than saying "maybe you will [fold]?"
Possibly he didn't actually know whether or not you had in fact looked at your cards since he wasn't paying attention to this himself. This is his own mistake, and he is likely trying to project the blame for this error onto you (incorrectly so, obviously).
There are certain things I could imagine someone saying that *might* be angle shooting. IMO, none of above is even close to angle shooting.
ScottyZ
I concur...
I've read and re-read this post lots of times. It has taught me a lot about how a high-level player thinks during a tournament and reads players. There is a lot of real insight here. Thanks for sharing it.
Also, I think this sort of article would be a *great* sort of thing to put in Canadian Poker Monthly. I think people (at least I would) would enjoy reading tournament reports with commentary like this one. A lot of the articles so far have been quite theory based (which I for one like), but I think actual tournament reports and/or actual specific hands with commentary could be very exciting and informative, and tend to appeal to a large audience. I think a "tournament report with commentary" style article based on the WSOP tournament(s) you are playing in would be ***awesome***.
I had a couple more specific quesitons about the original post.
If you don't mind me asking, what is your "five finger checklist"? No problem if you'd rather not answer this, I completely understand if you'd rather not share the specifics of any of your tournament routines (especially going into the WSOP).
Again if you wouldn't mind sharing, I'd like to hear more about your limp-steal play in late position. You already mentioned something like using it most often if the blinds are "predictable". Do you mean specifically that you might limp-steal more often in the blinds are defending against pre-flop steals liberally? Or against opponents that you have a very specific read on post-flop (like knowing Sunglasses' betting pattern)?
I'm really curious about the theory of this particular play, because I don't think I've *ever* considered limping in from the cut-off or button when it was folded to me. Where did you get this idea? (Maybe that sounds like a silly question, but I don't think I've ever seen this kind of play mentioned in the poker literature I've read so far.) What sorts of hands will you do this with? I realize that when you're stealing in any form, you're playing the situation (players, stack size & position) moreso than the cards, but you you favour making the limp-steal play more or less often with any specific kind of hand? An ace? A suited connector? Pocket ducks?
ScottyZ
I have worked on a lot of things over the last year as I prepare to lose $10K in ten days from now. Perhaps more than anything I came to realize that when I make a BIG mistake it is because I have not taken time on the decision and I have rushed into an act too quickly. To counteract this I developed my five finger checklist. I try to physically count (subtly) on my fingers.
(T)humb -- (T)hink about it. Take your time.
(I)ndex -- (I)nstinct. Am I having a STRONG gut reaction to the situation.
(M)iddle -- (M)ean to me? What a will the consequences mean to me? Is this the sort of situation in which it is worth risking going broke?
(R)ing -- (R)ange of hands. What is this player’s range of hands? In other words... "What's he got?"
(P)inky -- (P)layer in question is capable of what? In other words, "How will be play his hand?"
There is a lot more thinking and writing behind each of those but if I slow myself down physically and use my checklist I tend to make the best decision that I am capable of making. I am sometimes wrong, of course, but at least I am not wrong because I am reckless.
It is, for me, important that I limp in some of the time. Some limping will, I think, make me a little less predictable.
Pre-flop I think of my situation as being (1) A big hand looking for action; (2) A straight steal; (3) A re-steal; or (4) A limp steal.
Without going into a lot of details in this post, I like to limp steal when the blinds are the sorts of players who defend liberally but also bet on their hands.
Against this kind of player if you raise pre-flop they will often defend AND go into a shell. So, you raise pre-flop with trash the big blind calls. The flop is Q-J-2 and you have 7-4. Big blind checks. You are in a very uncomfortable spot. That flop very possibly hits the kinds of hands he will defend with but because you raised pre-flop you may send the big blind into "check and call mode" so betting on the flop may waste a lot of your chips. What if, same cards same flop, you had limped in. With the right kind of player you KNOW that if he bets out on the flop he has something. If he bets, you fold. If he checks you make a bet and pick up the pot.
I think I got the idea from me. It works VERY well in the right circumstance -- a table of ROCKS for instance. Also, the 2001 NL hold'em WSOP tournament I played gave me A LOT of food for thought. I felt like I was sitting there in my underpants. I started the day thinking that I knew how to play and finished the day wondering how I had been so ignorant.
If top players are able to accurately able to put you in a box and the chips are still deep then you are DEAD. You will be facing some very tough decisions.
What cards do I use? For straight steal and limp steal if I feel the circumstances call for either play, I generally make the play with ANY TWO CARDS. In fact, I sometimes make a steal or a limp steal without even looking at my cards because it gives me a kick.
I assume that the 'wrong' kind of player would be the kind who likes to check-raise a lot? (Just trying to build a defense against this type of play, if I'm not making the play myself...)
I'm starting to check-raise a lot more in NL tournaments, especially on the flop. I know it's kind of an ABC move, but it keeps people guessing and you see surprisingly few honest-to-goodness check-raises in NL tournaments, so it kind of takes people by surprise sometimes. Of course, that doesn't mean I never see a NL check-raise; I just see a lot less of them than I do in limit tournaments.
I've also been trying to look for 'hand value players', as per our discussion. (This is the type of player who bets exactly what he/she feels his hand is worth, making it very easy to put him on a hand). I have learned that, as you mentioned, many players overvalue their hands. Potentially more deadly though are a lot of new, timid players, who waaaaay undervalue their hands. They are honestly betting what they feel their hand is worth, but their 'scale' is way off.
Were there a lot of these types of players in the Yellowhead tourney, and do you expect to see many (if any) at WSOP?
Regards,
all_aces
The following is a hand that my friend faced at the No Limit event at Yellowhead that caused a lot of debate on the drive home. 11 players remain, and tables are at 6 and 5 players, blinds 10K-20K. My friend is first to act and has QQ, he is above average slightly with 150K in chips. This is how he played the hand. He preflop raises to 50K, everyone folds to BB, who has roughly the same amount of chips, and calls (FAST) the 30K raise. Flop comes KXX, BB goes all in and friend folds. Here was his thought process. He folds because he still feels that with 100K that he can get off this hand and play on, and wants to stay alive to both move up the ladder and make the final table, and also feels that BB is almost sure to have caught a K. I can totally understand his thought process. 3 people on the drive home,here comes the debate. First thing is the play preflop. Myself and F2 (friend #2) believe the raise to 50K is no good for several reasons. The biggest reason is that this raise really does nothing to define the strength of his hand as people have been making this raise quite often at this stage and this just looks like another one of those possible "steal type" raises. His rational that he does not want to commit all of his chips on QQ then brings us to say that he should FOLD then and not even commit the 30K raise.
He says that UTG he does not want AA KK or AK to be behind him if he puts it all in preflop. We argue that these 3 better hands (2 really) are going to get all of his chips anyway on most flops that dont contain an A or K, and also that the table is 6 handed, reducing the probability that one of the other 5 hands will be one of the "dreaded" 2. We both think that at this stage of the tourney, as you said the blinds were "oppressive," that this is probably the best starting 2 that he will get and might as well "go big or go home." he commited 33% of his stack and will be the blinds in the next 2 hands which ,if he folds, leaves him with 70K, less than half of what he started this hand with. I think that possibly the best reason for going all in preflop with the QQ is that you take away the chance that the BB blind is making a play on him, even though all 3 of us agree that there is a good chance that BB has a K (even said after that he had K-10) After much discussion, it seems that All in is the superior play. Athough my friend is somewhat swayed, he still argues that the way he played it was also legitimate. In poker, obviously, two different ways to play a hand can both have strong points. Also, I have a great deal of respect for my friends game.
I thought the debate by three above average players (IMO) on what is an interesting hand at a crucial time in a tournament was worth getting your opinion on.
Also, another comment to you as you go to the WSOP. Several of your postings have contained words to the effect of " Im going to LOSE 10K" at the final event. I think, and I'm sure you agree, that this is a very negative mindset for you to have before you play in the BIG ONE. Your game gives you as good of a shot as any of the other 2000.
Good Luck at the WSOP
Mike O
I know I'm not Dave, or even a reasonable hand-drawn facsimile of Dave, but here's my two cents anyways...
Sounds like the blind structure was pretty brutal at Yellowhead.
With regards to this situation, a general time-tested guideline which you're probably already aware of is: if you don't have at least 10 X the BB in front of you, it's probably better to push all-in than to raise a part of your stack.
150K with 11 left sounds like a healthy stack to me, but with the BB at 20K, it's not healthy enough. It seems to me that most people left at that point were kind of up against the wall, due to the blinds. Since your friend had less than 200K, I'd suggest pushing all-in, or folding.
I'd push in this spot, without a doubt, even though I usually try to avoid going all-in preflop if nobody else has entered the pot, unless I'm shortstacked. If I was very concerned about moving up the ladder, which is a reasonable concern, I'd fold and wait for a better position to move in with.
But, it's not going to get much better than QQ, six-handed, most of the time. The problem with QQ is that it's the type of hand you kind of want action on, which may be a part of the reason your friend didn't push. The flop can easily kill you, though, as it did here. From a results-oriented standpoint, if the flop had come ten-high, and the guy with KT had moved in, your friend would have won a very nice pot...
Regards,
all_aces
Agreed.
Have more confidence!
I also rememner thinking that it extermely bizzare when you mentioned a while ago that your flight home is booked for *before* the tournament ends. If I remember it correctly, the idea was that you wouldn't mind cancelling/rescheduling that flight if you still have chips when your flight leaves. However, and this may be just me, I could imagine situations where, if it actually was me, this might affect my decisions, and possibly swing them in the wrong direction. For example, say I knew I realistically had only about 2 hours of play left before my flight is leaving. If I had a stack which was still fairly healthy relative to the blinds, but was well below average (e.g. I have $15,000, average stack is $42,000, blinds are $400-800, $50 ante), I might be inclined to take a sub-optimal shot at doubling up thinking that it's literally time to double up or go home.
Wouldn't it make more sense to book a flight home after the tournament ends, and the change *those* plans if necessary?
Obviously you know yourself how you will handle the exact psychology of that particular situation, so this is of course FWIW, my $0.02, and all the usual disclaimers. 8)
Best of luck!
ScottyZ
I would have pushed all-in here myself.
My thought is that folding QQ UTG here is a pretty bad play. You are playing far too scared if you're worried about running into AA or KK specifically when it's 6 handed. Also, being short handed, you may even get lucky enough that someone on a big stack decides to "pick you off" with hands as weak as AJs or TT. On the other hand, a short stack (or anyone) who is in "bubble survival mode" might even toss a hand like AK which you wouldn't mind at all.
I don't think tournament survival is a major concern here. I might consider mucking this is I was 2nd shortest stack
Calling in not out of the question, but it's not nearly as good as pushing all-in I think.
I agree with all_aces' point that raising less than all-in isn't very useful. If there's no ante, a pot-sized raise is to $7,000 and raising this much pretty much leaves you comitted to the pot. Get it all in there.
If you pick up the blinds, they are big enough that this is a good result.
As all_aces pointed out, QQ is probably not a hand you want to try to get action out of post-flop. This is not only because you don't want to get stuck with a difficult situation if an A of K flops, but also that it will be so rare to *get* the action you desire when you do get a favorable flop. How often is your opponent going to hit a flop which is J high or less? (Or you could get a miracle flop like AQx of course.)
ScottyZ
The kind of player I am *very* worried about is a player who is capable of a re-raise bluff or semi-bluff. Players with that arrow in the quiver make me quiver.
At the WSOP there will be LOTS of tight predictable player. Unfortunately there will also be lofs of foxes. It is never any fun to have a fox on your left. A lot of your weapons are removed.
The 10 x BB rule is, I think, overused. It only applies PRE-FLOP. So, if you are up against a player who will fold or re-raise pre-flop then you should stack it in. But… what about little skilled opponents who will, for instance defend their blind by calling frequently and then play predictably post-flop. Against that kind of opponent you are, I think, MUCH better off to play that hand as it was played.
I have a simple rule: “Bet just enough to get the job done.â€
In the hand Mike describes the player with Q-Q had a good chance at the K-T player’s whole stack (what if the flop is ten high?). He has a good chance at an additional $30K from the big blind since if the BB misses he probably folds on the flop and the Q-Q carries on. And… the Q-Q player has a chance to escape the hand if he is beat. Which is the case here (at least according to the BB).
Personally, I play the hand EXACTLY like the player in question played it.
I will stack it in if: (1) The BB is a smallish stack; or (2) The BB is a tricky player who is capable of out playing me post flop. If he is not a tricky player then I MUCH prefer the more conservative approach.
Heh. Truthfully, my tongue is in my cheek. I am feeling very confident – as confident about my game as I can feel.
Having said that, what *realistically* are my chances? I have spent a lot of time on this question this past year. My honest guess is that, assuming they pay 10% of the field, I have a 15 to 20% chance of making the money. That means, of course, that I have an 80-85% chance of losing $10K. I wanted to feel comfortable with that. More importantly I wanted to make sure that my investors are comfortable with that.
What do I expect? I will play at the top of my ability and not make any grotesque errors. What do I hope? That the laughing Buddha will smile upon me and see me through to the final table (at that point I am on my own). I am not the most skilled player in the field but I am skilled *enough* that if the cards break my way I can win (there are players in the field that CANNOT win even if the cards break their way).
Airfare home? I suppose I could have done it the reverse. I didn’t really give it much thought other than to assure my wife (a busy physician) that I will not leave her alone with our two young sons any longer than I have to. That was what I was thinking when I booked my flights and nothing more.
My new motto is: “Mr Hellmuth? Nah, he’s just one of the 2,000 slack jaws that I have to iron out in ten days from now.†Anything else is simply my usual, humble, Canadian, self-effacing sense of humor.
That's the spirit. Go get 'em, eh? 8)
Hehe... slack jaws.
"Some folks'll never lose a thumb, but then again, some folk'll..."
ScottyZ
How was the payout? I like you read on blind steals (I haven't grasped the concept of playing any two cards yet in that position).
Good Luck @ the WSOP! I can see you coming back with the 3 Million Plus!
Ditto. 8)