Shampoo Deleo is too lucky for me!!
Still trying to get over the beat I suffered in tonights Edmonton $500 freeze out.
Started on murderer's row table with Jerry Carter, Buddy Ashmore, Dave Klassen, and other very good players. Survived that and was first to be moved off the toughest table in the tourney.
Moved to Vince "Shampoo" Deleo's table. I have 12,500 (starting stack 10K).
I am seat 3, shampoo is 8.
I do well, moving up to 18K without showing a hand.
Round 7, blinds, 300-600. Avereage stack is about 11,500. I am down to 14,000 after raising with 99 on the button and getting called by early position raiser and having to lay down to large bet with K and J on the flop.
I pick up Ad 4d in early position. I call (marginal play I realize). Shampoo calls in cut-off, button makes it 1600 to go. Big blind calls, I call, Shampoo calls. 6700 in the pot.
Flop: 10d 8d 4c.
good flop for me.
Big blind checks, I check, Shampoo checks, and the pre-flop raiser makes it 3K to go.
I was not familiar with the raiser, but I thought he had either a Big Ace, or pocket pair higher than 10s.
I call with my bottom pair and nut flush draw. Shampoo calls the 3K as well. I put shampoo either on a 10 (unlikely) diamonds, or a set (very unlikely).
The turn card is an Ace.
I thought for a moment. I have 9400. The pot is $15,700.
I thought it was possible that Shampoo could have A 10. or possibly A 8, and also possible that there was a set, but I thought it was very likely that my ACES and Fours were good, and if not, I still have the diamonds to hit.
I go all in.
Shampoo counts and thinks and counts (should have mentioned earlier that he had about 35,000 starting the hand and was a very big stack at that point).
He calls my $9400. The pre-flop raiser (with 5K left) folds (making me think he had pocket pair like JJ or QQ.
Then, Shampoo says to me (like he was Gus Hansen)... "CAN YOU BEAT 3 HIGH"!!!
I said I think so and flipped up my cards. HE was shocked to see that he was drawing "almost dead".
He shows 2 3 of diamonds!!!
Then I realize, he has 3 outs.. any 5 that is not a diamond.
You know the rest... 5 of clubs on the river, and instead of having a big stack of over 40K IGHN.
I would really like any imput from Dave, All Aces, ScottieZ or anyone else... Other than not playing my A4 suited, was my play bad?
PS. Shampoo later came up to me and explained, I had the pot odds to call as I thought a diamond or a 5 would win it for me! I think he was correct to call in the circumstances, (although I question his choice to play 2-3 suited). I would also appreciate any comments on Shampoo's play.
-- By the way, I was impressed with Shampoo's play. Not playing many hands, but playing very aggressively when he was in.
Look forward to any comments! Stupid poker!!
Started on murderer's row table with Jerry Carter, Buddy Ashmore, Dave Klassen, and other very good players. Survived that and was first to be moved off the toughest table in the tourney.
Moved to Vince "Shampoo" Deleo's table. I have 12,500 (starting stack 10K).
I am seat 3, shampoo is 8.
I do well, moving up to 18K without showing a hand.
Round 7, blinds, 300-600. Avereage stack is about 11,500. I am down to 14,000 after raising with 99 on the button and getting called by early position raiser and having to lay down to large bet with K and J on the flop.
I pick up Ad 4d in early position. I call (marginal play I realize). Shampoo calls in cut-off, button makes it 1600 to go. Big blind calls, I call, Shampoo calls. 6700 in the pot.
Flop: 10d 8d 4c.
good flop for me.
Big blind checks, I check, Shampoo checks, and the pre-flop raiser makes it 3K to go.
I was not familiar with the raiser, but I thought he had either a Big Ace, or pocket pair higher than 10s.
I call with my bottom pair and nut flush draw. Shampoo calls the 3K as well. I put shampoo either on a 10 (unlikely) diamonds, or a set (very unlikely).
The turn card is an Ace.
I thought for a moment. I have 9400. The pot is $15,700.
I thought it was possible that Shampoo could have A 10. or possibly A 8, and also possible that there was a set, but I thought it was very likely that my ACES and Fours were good, and if not, I still have the diamonds to hit.
I go all in.
Shampoo counts and thinks and counts (should have mentioned earlier that he had about 35,000 starting the hand and was a very big stack at that point).
He calls my $9400. The pre-flop raiser (with 5K left) folds (making me think he had pocket pair like JJ or QQ.
Then, Shampoo says to me (like he was Gus Hansen)... "CAN YOU BEAT 3 HIGH"!!!
I said I think so and flipped up my cards. HE was shocked to see that he was drawing "almost dead".
He shows 2 3 of diamonds!!!
Then I realize, he has 3 outs.. any 5 that is not a diamond.
You know the rest... 5 of clubs on the river, and instead of having a big stack of over 40K IGHN.
I would really like any imput from Dave, All Aces, ScottieZ or anyone else... Other than not playing my A4 suited, was my play bad?
PS. Shampoo later came up to me and explained, I had the pot odds to call as I thought a diamond or a 5 would win it for me! I think he was correct to call in the circumstances, (although I question his choice to play 2-3 suited). I would also appreciate any comments on Shampoo's play.
-- By the way, I was impressed with Shampoo's play. Not playing many hands, but playing very aggressively when he was in.
Look forward to any comments! Stupid poker!!
Comments
I think your play of the hand is fine. I think Shampoo was also fine. Although both of you have opted for "live by the sword, die by the sword." The betting progression is such that it is VERY hard for either or you or Vince to get out once you entered the pot in the first place.
Would I have played it the same? In your case, probably. In Vince's case, probably not. Give me 5-4s anytime, but I don't like 3-2 because of the reduced straight possibilities.
On the other hand, when chips are deep, I LOVE the bike cards because you can win A LOT of chips against a player with an ace.
That was part of my shock after the hand... I could understand playing 4-5 suited etc, but 23 was the last thing I would have expected, especially considering that he was playing relatively few hands at that stage of the tourney.
Good luck at the WSOP!
It Depends^TM.
Assume first that the remaining player will not call the extra $5,000.
The pot as it stands offers $25,100 to $9,400 on the call. That's around 2.67 to 1 for the immediate pot odds. Assuming he has 12 clean outs in 46 unseen cards, his drawing odds are 2.83 to 1.
Calling here looks like a minus-EV play, although quite close to a zero-EV play.1
The It Depends^TM part comes into play since we don't know what the player behind him will do. (Barring some kind of tell.)
If there is a 100% chance that this opponent will call, Shampoo's call would be EV-correct (though, still not necesarily correct). If there is a 100% chance that the last opponent folds, the pot odds are insufficient to make calling correct here.
Actually, there needs to be around $26,600 in the pot2 for the EV break even point. In other words, the call would be EV-correct if the pre-flop raiser will call his last $5,000 with probability greater than 30%.
ScottyZ
1Of course, a fold is superior to a zero-EV call in the vast majority of tournament situations.
2That's just the drawing odds multiplied by the bet size: 2.83 * $9,400 = $26,600
The other factor I thought was odd is that he was a very big stack at that stage of the tourney. Dave has written about the sort of thought process you go through in that situation. If he calls and loses (which is as you say nearly 3-1 shot) then he goes from big stack to high avereage stack. If he folds, he is still a big stack. Of course, if he wins this large pot, he is likely the chip leader, or one of them. I guess as Dave put it, when he decides to play the suited bike cards, and flops the flush draw, and turns the bike draw, it is tough to justify laying it down (in his mind) given that this sort of situation is what he was hoping for when he entered the pot with that sort of hand.
Thanks for you analysis ScottieZ
PS Shampoo did not take all my chips to the money. As another very well known player told me on Saturday when I was complimenting shampoo's play (overall), the impression is that he tends to accumulate chips very well and then play recklessly. My view his that this sort of style (viewed as reckless) is the sort of style that either wins you tournements, or causes you to crash and burn.
Another example of Shampoo's play that I would appreciate comments on:
Blinds 2-400. He raisess in late position to 1500 and the big blind and an EP limper call.
Flop 5d 8 c 9d.
BB checks. EP limper bets out 3K and has about 10K behind. Shampoo goes all in (30K)
I thought it was a very interesting play... however, rethinking it now, it seems that his thinking was that this was a good flop for him and he was not going to fold. If the guy hit a miracle straight, or set, or two pair, he was likely to lose another 10K, if not, he takes down the pot and gets rid of the possible flush draw. I recall being impressed with the fearlessness he showed in shoving all of his chips in. In his position, I am thinking "what the heck is this early position better betting into me, the pre-flop raiser with on that flop". On of the answers is that other player hit something like A9 for top pair and puts Vince on AK etc. and tries to see where he is at.
Would appreciate comments on this hand as well... thanks.