Copying ScottyZ, you make the play

djw

This is the first 5 hands or so of this $10+$1 tourney. You make the play.


***** Hand History for Game *****
15/30 TOURNEYTEXASHTGAMETABLE (NL) (TOURNAMENT) - WED MAY 05 17:04:43 EDT 2004
Table Table 11124 (Real Money) -- Seat 10 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: Nam420 (725)
Seat 2: chvzfamcom (800)
Seat 3: moose018 (115)
Seat 4: djw666 (1120)
Seat 5: tomjoad (715)
Seat 6: majorbluffer (960)
Seat 7: SenatorsRule (550)
Seat 8: psychokitie (1470)
Seat 9: mchristy1 (825)
Seat 10: MATTBMT (720)
Nam420 posts small blind (10)
chvzfamcom posts big blind (15)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to djw666 [ Ah, Ad ]
moose018 calls (15)
djw666 raises (30) to 30
tomjoad folds.
Nam420: haha
majorbluffer calls (30)
SenatorsRule calls (30)
psychokitie folds.
mchristy1 calls (30)
MATTBMT folds.
Nam420 calls (20)
chvzfamcom folds.
moose018 calls (15)
** Dealing Flop ** : [ As, Td, Jh ]
Nam420 checks.
moose018 bets (85)
moose018 is all-In.
djw666 calls (85)
majorbluffer folds.
SenatorsRule calls (85)
mchristy1 raises (795) to 795
mchristy1 is all-In.
Nam420 folds.

I'm next, and SenatorsRule is behind me with 400 or so chips.

update: It was the 9th hand of the tourney, sorry.

ScottyZ

Call.

You way you have so far played this hand so far is *begging* for action, and now you've got that action. If you're even considering folding now, you played it far too weakly at the earlier decision points.

I personally would have moved all-in pre-flop, although (or possibly because) this is a highly non-standard play.

The fact that there are such large deviations in stack sizes at hand #5 of the tournament tells me that you are playing with players fishy enough to call an all-in pre-flop bet with a wide variety of hands.

ScottyZ

djw

ScottyZ wrote:

Call.

You way you have so far played this hand so far is *begging* for action, and now you've got that action. If you're even considering folding now, you played it far too weakly at the earlier decision points.

Agreed, I wanted action.

I personally would have moved all-in pre-flop, although (or possibly because) this is a highly non-standard play.

I wanted to slow play this a bit.

The fact that there are such large deviations in stack sizes at hand #5 of the tournament tells me that you are playing with players fishy enough to call an all-in pre-flop bet with a wide variety of hands.

ScottyZ

True I suppose. Here is the outcome:


djw666 raises (1005) to 1090
djw666 is all-In.
SenatorsRule folds.
** Dealing Turn ** : [ 7c ]
Nam420: oh man
** Dealing River ** : [ 2h ]
Nam420: hahah
Creating Main Pot with $535 with moose018
Creating Side Pot 1 with $1420 with mchristy1
Creating Side Pot 2 with $295 with djw666
** Summary **
Main Pot: 535 | Side Pot 1: 1420 | Side Pot 2: 295
Board: [ As Td Jh 7c 2h ]
Nam420 balance 695, lost 30 (folded)
chvzfamcom balance 785, lost 15 (folded)
moose018 balance 0, lost 115 [ Th Jc ] [ two pairs, jacks and tens -- As,Jc,Jh,Th,Td ]
djw666 balance 295, bet 1120, collected 295, lost -825 [ Ah Ad ] [ three of a kind, aces -- Ah,Ad,As,Jh,Td ]
tomjoad balance 715, didn't bet (folded)
majorbluffer balance 930, lost 30 (folded)
SenatorsRule balance 435, lost 115 (folded)
psychokitie balance 1470, didn't bet (folded)
mchristy1 balance 1955, bet 825, collected 1955, net +1130 [ Qd Kh ] [ a straight, ten to ace -- As,Kh,Qd,Jh,Td ]
MATTBMT balance 720, didn't bet (folded)

ScottyZ

[ Qd Kh ] [ a straight, ten to ace -- As,Kh,Qd,Jh,Td ]

D'oh! I figured that was coming simply from the fact that you bothered to post the hand here. Tough flop for you, and (since I already said I would call myself) I don't think it's one you can get away from.

Even if I wasn't trying my usual "crazy" all-in play pre-flop, I probably still would have made it 60 to go pre-flop. (Or possibly I would have made it 115 to go in this particular case.) I generally use a standard raise to either 3 or 4 times the big blind, and when the blinds are smaller, I tend to favour the larger choice. With that said, I'm still going to lose all my chips if the KQ decides to see this flop anyway. This is too good of a flop to get away from because you are a such a huge favorite against any hand other than KQ specifically, and you even have decent re-draw chances against the KQ (or any straight draws).

ScottyZ

djw

Yup, but like you said, I had to call here.

I did slow play this a bit much pre-flop. Normally at the early stages of the tourney I would make it 100 or so and if I was re-raised I would probably go all-in. Not sure why I played this one like I did.. maybe I was trying for the big score!

Like you mentioned, I doubt that this player would have been put off his hand pre-flop unless it was a large chunk of, or all of his chips.

ScottyZ

Like you mentioned, I doubt that this player would have been put off his hand pre-flop unless it was a large chunk of, or all of his chips.

Well, it depends. I think most reasonable players *would* put down KQ for a standard size pre-flop raise in round one of a tournament, even if they might try to go ahead and limp in with that same hand if they got the opportunity. Raising the minimum sort of puts you in between these two areas, so that it is still fairly cheap for limpers to get in there (especially because it's round one and the blinds are small), but you've given away some information about your hand by raising.

The thing is that your opponents liberally calling your pot-sized raises cold with KQ will probably lose them money in the long run (you'll often have hands which dominate KQ), but limping in in spots where they can enter the pot cheaply can occasionally have its rewards too.

There are ceratinly rare cases when raising the minimum pre-flop can be effective, but trying this too often, you're going to get much more action than you really want in the early stages of a tournament. However, almost any situation I can think of where I might raise (or bet) the minimum, I think probably just calling (or checking) would be better.

One of the worst examples of this I've ever seen was in round one of a tournament where there were 4 players in for 200 each pre-flop. The flop comes K22 and the pre-flop raiser bets the minimum of 20 into an ~800 pot. Everyone folds. He voluntarily shows KK, and makes some comment in the chat that he was trying to "suck people in".

ScottyZ

dvst8r

Ouch Dave.

Anonymous

I don't think you did anything wrong, just an unfortunate flop for you when the other guy flops the nut straight. His dream "1 in 19,600" flop...

ice

that was me Dave... the last post. Its hard to get away from trip aces.

kwplayer

Oh I am going to get killed for this post, but here goes.

I think you made a brutal mess of this hand starting with your preflop raise. A raise of $30 is certainally going to get action, and put your entire stack at risk. You are giving everyone at the table huge implied odds to make a hand and cost you everything. That is, in fact exactly what happened here. I think you should come in with a raise of somewhere around $120. Either that or I would limp and try to re-raise if someone raised (I would only make this play occasionally and only at an aggressive table).

Now the flop comes pretty good for you. The first player comes with an all-in bet of $85 and you simply smooth call. Again a very poor play. With this flop you want to try to figure out where you are in the hand. By smooth calling the all-in you have not declared your hand at all. When the player behind you goes all-in (roughly $800) you have trouble putting them on a hand. Let me be more specific ... If you go $300 and they go all-in you can figure he has a pretty major hand. When someone went all-in from that bet I would strongly consider laying my hand down.

Yes yes I know you have top set. But (a) you let people in, and (b) you have shown considerable strength on the flop (with a $300 raise) and the guy still goes all-in behind you. You would still have about $770 in chips (fine at this point in the tournament) if you folded and even if you are good in this hand, there are plenty of cards that could kill you.

Most people can't fold top set and I agree it is a very difficult laydown based on how you played your hand up to that point. I think almost everyone at the table is going to call your minimum raise with KQ. I think if you play your hand a little stronger you can either (a) make the implied odds much worse on the KQ player and (b) actually be able to potentially get away from the hand.

In these tournaments I play VERY tight early on being very careful to leave myself with an opportunity to get lucky later in the tournament (typically when it is 4-5 handed). Players early on play very crazy and the best defense is to play VERY strong when you have the goods and when you don't simply fold.

Leave your nice trap plays for later in the tournament when the players you are against are likely to be much smarter. The early players play so poorly that they are going to give you plenty of action even if you "push all-in" as scotty said. In those tournaments I don't mind that play at all ... you often get a caller and with be a big favourite to double up.

.kw

djw

kwplayer wrote:

Oh I am going to get killed for this post, but here goes.

I think you made a brutal mess of this hand starting with your preflop raise. A raise of $30 is certainally going to get action, and put your entire stack at risk. You are giving everyone at the table huge implied odds to make a hand and cost you everything. That is, in fact exactly what happened here. I think you should come in with a raise of somewhere around $120. Either that or I would limp and try to re-raise if someone raised (I would only make this play occasionally and only at an aggressive table).

Now the flop comes pretty good for you. The first player comes with an all-in bet of $85 and you simply smooth call. Again a very poor play. With this flop you want to try to figure out where you are in the hand. By smooth calling the all-in you have not declared your hand at all. When the player behind you goes all-in (roughly $800) you have trouble putting them on a hand. Let me be more specific ... If you go $300 and they go all-in you can figure he has a pretty major hand. When someone went all-in from that bet I would strongly consider laying my hand down.

Yes yes I know you have top set. But (a) you let people in, and (b) you have shown considerable strength on the flop (with a $300 raise) and the guy still goes all-in behind you. You would still have about $770 in chips (fine at this point in the tournament) if you folded and even if you are good in this hand, there are plenty of cards that could kill you.

Most people can't fold top set and I agree it is a very difficult laydown based on how you played your hand up to that point. I think almost everyone at the table is going to call your minimum raise with KQ. I think if you play your hand a little stronger you can either (a) make the implied odds much worse on the KQ player and (b) actually be able to potentially get away from the hand.

In these tournaments I play VERY tight early on being very careful to leave myself with an opportunity to get lucky later in the tournament (typically when it is 4-5 handed). Players early on play very crazy and the best defense is to play VERY strong when you have the goods and when you don't simply fold.

Leave your nice trap plays for later in the tournament when the players you are against are likely to be much smarter. The early players play so poorly that they are going to give you plenty of action even if you "push all-in" as scotty said. In those tournaments I don't mind that play at all ... you often get a caller and with be a big favourite to double up.

.kw

Thanks kw! Don't feel bad about posting your opinion, it's taken as constructive critisism.

Thanks for being honest.

ScottyZ

Oh I am going to get killed for this post, but here goes.

Not by me. In fact I was going to originally post almost exactly the same things you said, but I tried instead to take a shot at it with a "However I got here, now what do I do?" sort of approach.

I think the idea I like best is raising on the flop. If you make it even as little at $200 to go after the first player moved all-in for $85, most players without a big hand behind you will give it up at that point, realizing that you are showing excessive strength by raising into a dry side-pot. If you raise in this spot, and *then* get moved in on, you took the guesswork out of it, and you fold. (Note that you would never raise to $200 or $300 in this spot with the intention of calling of course... simply push all the chips in there yourself.)

By flat calling the $85, your opponent moving all-in suddenly doesn't necessarily mean anything specific--- this is the "guesswork" I was referring to.

One last thing that a *lot* of people will disagree with I'm sure: at hand #9 of the tournament, if I move all-in pre-flop with AA and pick up the blinds, I'm happy with this result.

ScottyZ

ScottyZ

His dream "1 in 19,600" flop...

It's considerably more likely than 1 in 19,600 that he would flop a nut straight. This method of counting flops considers

As Jh Td

and

Ac Jd Th

to be unique flops.

That is, I've shown you that there are at least *two* such flops out of the 19,600 possible by this method of enumerating flops (disregarding order, but observing suits) which make the nut straight for KQ.

There are 32 of 19,600 flops containing AJT, and 64 containing JT9, so the odds against KQ flopping a nut straight are about 203 to 1 (or 612 to 1 if you demand that the broadway straight flops).

ScottyZ

kwplayer

Not to mention considerably more hands where he will outflop you. Something like KQx will cripple you along with flops you might be able to get away from KKx, QQx, etc.

I think there are certainly proper times to slow play a big pair like that in hopes of generating some action. I just don't think this was one of them.

-- by that I mean early in a (typically) very lose sng with a pile of clowns after you that might very well give you the action you crave regardless of how much you raise.

PS. There have been some spots where I have made the aggressive play and ended up costing myself a lot of chips. Here are two examples that happened back to back in $100 NL game.

1. I get AA and make a big preflop raise and get two callers. Flop comes Kxx and I move in. He calls with KQ and proceeds to catch a Q.

2. (after rebuying) I get AK and after someones reasonable raise I move in on him. The idea here is I figure I am coin flip at wost and will possible get action out of AQ. Well I was wrong it was KQ and he caught a Q on the flop. :-P

In both cases if I played my hand slower I might have been able to get away cheaper. In the second example if I just took the flop and then he bet out with a Qxx board I would have certainly folded.

But that is all hind sight as (more often than not) these hands hold up and certainly have +EV. Don't beat yourself up if all the money gets in when you have the best hand and then get drawn out on. Beat yourself up when all the money gets in when you have the worst hand (regardless of the results).