how to play Pocket Queens (or Jacks) in a tourney.

Paul3221

I think that this is a big leak in my tournament game.  I can remember at least 4 different times in the last little while that Queens or Jacks have crippled me in a tourney.  How would others play this a hand like this?  I'm Baron321:

***** Hand History for Game 1997674598 *****
NL Hold'em  Trny:11905135 Level:1 Blinds (10/15) - Wednesday, May 04, 11:06:46 EDT 2005
Table Multi-Table(326543) Table #70 (Real Money)
Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 1: FRANKSR68 ( $1970 )
Seat 2: sbody ( $735 )
Seat 3: ltuengineer ( $955 )
Seat 5: DoorBell ( $2415 )
Seat 6: LifesABreez ( $985 )
Seat 7: Lucasvon ( $985 )
Seat 9: FOLALOU ( $955 )
Seat 10: Baron321 ( $1000 )
Seat 4: olegrayhair ( $380 )
Trny:11905135 Level:1
Blinds (10/15)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Baron321 [  Qd Qs ]
Lucasvon calls [15].
FOLALOU folds.
rojovegrey has joined the table.
Player rojovegrey has been moved from Multi-Table(326543) Table #99 table
lucky for you i folded my j. lol
Baron321 raises [250].
FRANKSR68 folds.
sbody folds.
ltuengineer folds.
DoorBell folds.
LifesABreez folds.
Lucasvon calls [235].
** Dealing Flop ** [ Js, 8s, Kh ]
Lucasvon checks.
Baron321 bets [100].
Lucasvon calls [100].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 9h ]
Lucasvon checks.
Baron321 checks.
** Dealing River ** [ 7h ]
Lucasvon bets [250].
Baron321 folds.
Lucasvon does not show cards.
Lucasvon wins 975 chips

Hork42

Paul3221 wrote:

Level:1 Blinds (10/15)

Baron321 raises [250].

Holy huge-raise Batman!    Why commit so many chips so early in the tournament?  Either someone has a better hand and calls or re-raises you, or you're committing 250 chips to steal 35.   Open raise 3x-4x the BB in this situation.

Lucasvon calls [235].

Sometimes, early in these tournaments, you will get very loose (read: idiot) callers who will call a bet of 10x the BB with Ax or a small pair (or any two suited, etc...)  Very unpredictable and hard to read.  Say the flop comes with an Ace, where is your hand at now?  A smaller raise preflop lets you get away from this hand easier. 

pkrfce9

Hork replied as I was writing this...

Pre-flop raise way too high. It's early so go more than 3-4BB. Maybe bet 100. Still easy to get away from if you are re-raised.

Flop bet far too low. You gotta go 50-75% of the pot. If he re-raises you, there's a good chance you are beat already.

It is probably 50-50 that you have the best hand at the river.

BBC Z

Bigger bet on the flop please.

Bet the turn, check the river.

Don't check the turn and then even consider for a moment calling anything on the river. If he comes overtop of you on the turn, you're beat. If he leads out at the river after you bet the turn, you're beat. When you check, you give him all the power in the hand to represent any of the scare cards and force you to fold a winning hand.

Holy huge-raise Batman! Why commit so many chips so early in the tournament? Either someone has a better hand and calls or re-raises you, or you're committing 250 chips to steal 35. Open raise 3x-4x the BB in this situation.

If he raises 3x15 = 45. Everyone will call and HERO risks busting out to a garbage hand played by the bazillion limpers. Also, players are far too loose in the opening of tournaments, meaning that people will call these kinds of bets with hands that hero dominates.

I can only see a micro raise if you are just trying to flop a set and will toss away your queens to any action. But that sounds like a misplay to me.

Say the flop comes with an Ace, where is your hand at now? A smaller raise preflop lets you get away from this hand easier.

In both scenarios, it's tough to play.You may sleep sounder at night because you wussed the preflop bet, but you missed alot of EV with the 3rd bet starting hand. In the 'big raise' case, you forced your opponent to pay a large preflop bet in order to try and flop his ace. In your 'small bet' scenario, you let him do it for free.

literation

I cannot in recent memory recall anyone raising more than 10xBB preflop. There might have been a 12xBB raise but ~ 16xBB is astronomical.
Even so, you are not yet crippled post flop.

Paul3221

I tried the over-the-top approach today, mostly just trying to steal.  As you can see, this didn't pan out at all:

***** Hand History for Game 2002734367 *****
NL Hold'em  Trny:11935074 Level:3 Blinds (15/30) - Thursday, May 05, 11:32:37 EDT 2005
Table Multi-Table(327268) Table #30 (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: noixa11 ( $720 )
Seat 2: jchrimes ( $930 )
Seat 3: MAKKAK_54 ( $545 )
Seat 4: mwbskb ( $2175 )
Seat 5: acesup33351 ( $1390 )
Seat 6: bigslick1832 ( $890 )
Seat 8: bproff ( $1225 )
Seat 9: Baron321 ( $980 )
Seat 10: lucybullets ( $205 )
Seat 7: Weedfly ( $2071 )
Trny:11935074 Level:3
Blinds (15/30)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Baron321 [  Qd Qc ]
acesup33351 calls [30].
bigslick1832 calls [30].
Weedfly calls [30].
bproff calls [30].
Baron321 is all-In.
lucybullets is all-In.
noixa11 folds.
jchrimes is all-In.
MAKKAK_54 folds.
mwbskb folds.
Weedfly: kind of hand i never played but nobody bet on flop:P
acesup33351 folds.
bigslick1832 folds.
Weedfly folds.
bproff folds.
** Dealing Flop ** [ Qs, 3c, 7h ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ Jd ]
** Dealing River ** [ Kc ]
Baron321 shows [ Qd, Qc ] three of a kind, queens.
lucybullets shows [ Js, Ac ] a pair of jacks.
jchrimes shows [ Ts, As ] a straight, ten to ace.
Baron321 wins 50 chips from  side pot #2  with three of a kind, queens.
jchrimes wins 1450 chips from  side pot #1  with a straight, ten to ace.
jchrimes wins 780 chips from  the main pot  with a straight, ten to ace.
Player lucybullets finished in 704 place
lucybullets has left the table.

Hork42

See my previous post. Why commit everything to Queens so early in the tournament? Make a small-medium raise... you're either taking the pot down (which is very small anyway), or someone is going to gamble with you and you're going to be hit by a lot of variance. The QQ will hold up a good % of the time, but will also get beat up by the Ace-Jacks and King-sevens.

QQ becomes very powerful later in the tournament when people have most of the gambool out of their system. Always consider the size of the blinds relative to the size of your stack. The more short-stacked you are, the more need for "desparation plays". I see pushing 1000 chips into an unraised pot when the blinds are still 15/30 unnecessary.

Look at the flop. Q comes to hit your set. At THAT point, you can push in. AT or AJ cannot call you, and you take it down.

pkrfce9

Are you coming here to vent or to learn?

ScottyZ

I see a lot of merit in limping-in with QQ in the ultra-early stages of a low buy-in1 tourney. I'd also move all-in with them pre-flop in some situations, particularly during a rebuy stage. Both are unconventional plays to be sure, but (in the early stages) low buy-in tourneys are often filled with unconventional opponents.

Playing against bad players in cash games is, for the most part, easier than playing against typical players. Playing against bad players in tournaments is more complicated than many people think.

I tried the over-the-top approach today, mostly just trying to steal.

This would be a horrible steal, if it actually was a steal attempt (which it is not). You are risking $980 to win $165.

Don't forget that if you're calling a play a "steal", you would have to have been willing to have made exactly the same play in exactly the same scenario against exactly the same opponents holding 23o.

(I'm not buying calling it a "semi-steal" either.)

In the ultra-early stages of a low buy-in tourney, pushing all-in with the QQ can only be a raise for value. That is, it would be correct to make this play if you had a reasonable expectation of being called by a worse hand (or worse hands).

I'm not saying that this particular play was right or wrong. It's the classification of the play as a "steal" that is not accurate I think.

The nature of this particular play depends a great deal (I would say, almost entirely) on the reads you had on your opponents. It's difficult, if not impossible, to evaluate the play without knowing how your opponents have previously reacted to previous all-in pre-flop scenarios.

A quick lithmus test might be to ask yourself, "Would one of my opponents (who is still in the pot) call here if he had 44 and I moved all-in?" If one opponent probably would, pushing in is probably okay. If two or more probably would call you with such hands, moving all-in probably now goes in the clear-cut play category.

As you can see, this didn't pan out at all:

Yes it did.

In fact, the result is pretty much the absolute best you could have hoped for. Not only did no-one have the only hands that should reasonably call your bet (AA, KK, or maybe AK), but your opponents do not even have the full 5 or 6 combined outs against you that you'd typically expect when called in two places.

ScottyZ

1I'm just guessing that these are low buy-in due to the unconventional plays we have seen in the hand examples.

stpboy

I see where Paul is coming from, Queens and Jacks are two of the most difficult hands in hold em' to play.  Your original question, how to play them is one that I believe has been covered in this forum several times and for good reason.  I don't think there is one cookie cutter way to play Q's or J's.  
I think the problem you might be running into is how much to bet in each situation, preflop and postflop.  If I were you I would mix your game up a bit and try some different things.  Try just limping with Q's or J's, alot easier to get away from them for cheap if they're causing you problems.  Practice with 3x and 4x the raise preflop and pot betting on the flop if it's favourable.  We all have problems with Q's and J's.

stp