Bad Beats or Bad Plays

Dorez

I've started to play a lot more NL cash games lately rather than tourny's lately. A lot more fun, but I haven't been doing well. I can't tell if it's bad beats or bad play. I figure I'm doing pretty well, I typically end up doubling my money within the first hour, then losing it all by the end of it. I went on tilt after this hand and ended up going all in ($20) with A7, was actually a good call because I was winning, but I know shouldn't have done that.

Anyways, here's a hand for discussion.


call $2 BB in MP with KJc
everyone folds, but SB
SB raises to $25.
I call.
BB folds, EP limpers fold.

flop comes K 3 5 rainbow
SB bets $25.

*Here's where I had a decision to make. At this point, I'm thinking push, push, push. But his pre-flop raise has me thinking he might have me outkicked.*
I call.

Turn Jd.

He pushes all-in (Around $36, I think for a second and put him on KJ, thinking I'm going to split the pot, so I call.

He flips over K7 diamonds (plus the 5 of diamonds on the board, giving him the flush draw)

He looks at disgust, only to see a 10 of diamonds hit on the river, giving him a nice pot.

He was known to be fairly agressive, which I didn't think about at the time. I know I made a good call on the turn, but who wouldn't have called? But I can't stop thinking about whether or not I should have made my move earlier. We quickly talked about it with the people on my side of the table and they figured he would have called regardless the way he's been playing with top pair. Should I have raised pre-flop with a KJ. Should I have pushed on the flop. I believe the flop is where I should have made my move, but I'm still not 100% sure. Anyone have any help they can provide.

Thanks

BBC Z

I figure I'm doing pretty well, I typically end up doubling my money within the first hour

Awesome.

, then losing it all by the end of it.

Uhhh.. maybe we need to define the term 'well' ?

call $2 BB in MP with KJc
everyone folds, but SB
SB raises to $25.
I call.

WHAT?!?! You are playing 1/2 NL and called a bet of $25 into a $4 pot? Toss that crappy KJs away. Lets think of the flops that you are going to be happy with: Umm... 3 spades.. Uhh... Three Kings.. two Jacks.. Anything else and you are probably looking into the business end of domination.

Turn Jd.

He pushes all-in (Around $36, I think for a second and put him on KJ, thinking I'm going to split the pot, so I call.

Now you are just being silly. You have KJ, the board has KJ. You put your opponent on KJ? Theres only four possible combinations of that hand left. This isn't a good read. His most likely hand is AA/AK/KK over the longterm.

I believe the flop is where I should have made my move, but I'm still not 100% sure. Anyone have any help they can provide.

Your major Major MAJOR error was pre-flop with calling a large bet into a micro pot. Once you did that, you are pretty much committed to showdown when you make TPMK and you arent going to shake mr agressive off his top pair so however the cards fell is inconsequential.

But please, understand that your preflop call is easily a long term losing proposition. You will be used and abused by players with monster pockets.

ScoobyD

I've gotten away from playing NL ring games but here's my take of it.

*Here's where I had a decision to make.  At this point, I'm thinking push, push, push.  But his pre-flop raise has me thinking he might have me outkicked.*

If you're worried about being outkicked, then why are you calling the 23 dollar raise preflop into a nothing pot?  The huge raise out of position seems odd, either a very big hand, or a weak one like a small pair.  Going to depend on your read of the player, but I'm not a big fan of putting this much money into the pot (even with position) with a hand like KJs.  

Flop: Depends heavily on your read.  If he's as aggressive as you say, I'd say the 25 dollar bet looks weak, and I'd likely push.

Turn:  I think at this point you have to assume you're good (being as you've come this far with KJ).  If you were going to fold, it should have been sooner than now...

Preflop, I probably would have raised with this hand something fairly std like 3-4BB.  23 dollars is a bit ridiculous.

Just my 2 cents, I expect some more seasoned NL players may have some better advice...

STR82ACE

To answer your question, Dorez, I would have to say calling such a large preflop bet into a nonexistant pot was a bad play, not a bad beat. Yea, sure you had him, up until the river, but it was a risky call at best. Just my 2cents.

UglyJimStudly

I tend to agree that as a general rule, calling a huge raise into a nothing pot with a fairly mediocre hand is a money-losing proposition. OTOH, no limit is often at least as much about playing your opponent as it is about playing the cards. In your example, the other guy made two huge overbets when he wanted you to go away and not call what were basically naked bluffs. If he had a reliable pattern of doing that, then you can turn that to your advantage in other hands. Whenever you get beat, try and learn something from it - either about your opponent or about yourself. It makes it a bit less likely that you'll go on tilt.

So far as your play before his big bet, my theory on no-limit in general is "go big or go home". Limping is almost always a bad idea in a ring game (in tournaments it can be acceptable because you have to occasionally win with some weird cards to beat the blinds in most tournaments), so the real choice preflop is "fold or raise".

Dorez

Looks like it's back to reading books for me :fish:

Thanks for your help guys, much appreciated.  

I realize I have been playing these big pre-flop raises and initiating them myself.  With the people I usually play with, I can't seem to get these people out of the pot with a more than decent raise.  So when I head to cash games, I end up playing the same way.

Lots of holes in my game I have to fill.

As for the doing well comment, I guess I was feeling confident that day.  A previous hand near doubled me up, I went in with $80 and after a few hands (One in particular) I was at about $140.  Had pocket kings, riased $20 with one caller.  With rags and his flush draw on the flop, He bet out $20 and I called (maybe I should have raised), when he hit his flush draw on the turn which also showed 2 pair, he tried to trap me by checking.  I read it (I don't usually read people that much so this boosted my confidence) and checked promptly.  The board tripped on the river, he bet out $25, I called and won a nice pot.  After that I lost about $30-40, calling raisers when I had middle pairs or suited connectors (usually with 2 or more callers, but I'm sure I made the mistake of the one caller big raise thing).  Picking up a couple pots here and there with post-flop bets when everyone looked weak, but not enough to keep above water.  


I WAS feeling pretty confident about my game (cocky some would say) winning 50% of my home games against people who don't know what they're doing.

But it's good to get shot down once in a while to realize that there's a lot more I have to learn.  

Thanks for the help guys.

BBC Z

I read it (I don't usually read people that much so this boosted my confidence) and checked promptly. The board tripped on the river, he bet out $25, I called and won a nice pot.

If you read it so well, why didn't you move all-in on him on the river? He's going to call you with the flush and you are holding a boat.. It's not much to say "Yeah I read him like a book" and then passively call his bet.

Dorez

Well, I didn't read him like a book, again my instincts just told me something on the turn. They usually don't say anything.
I should clarify, I didn't read the flush. Instincts just told me that he was trying to trap me, I was ready to bet on the turn, but decided to check. I should have bet more on the river, but I was content with the size of pot and didn't want to risk anything in case he had aces. (Which is actually another problem of mine for another thread). I'm not saying I'm an awesome player, like i said, I still have a lot to learn, I'm just saying I'm starting to see things, I don't usually see. I typically just play the cards and not the man, but I feel I'm getting better(not the best, just better) at seeing what other people are trying to do.

Flint Bones

I agree about the call before the Flop it was a bad play. Take your $2 loss and move on.

Also when the second $25 bet came after the flop you only had top pair and nothing else. There were a lot of things that could beat you. The only choice here is to either fold or over bet him and make his cards be worth something. Calling wasn't the right move.

Personally when the all-in was made I would have been worried about the Flush or trips with his big bet before the flop. Calling it wasn’t that strong of a play, however, you were pretty pot committed at that point and it is tough to lay down two pair. Still, I fold that hand.

STR82ACE

Kinda sounds to me that you were feeling pretty cocky and invulnerable after your first quick win, almost doubling you up. That's probably were you went wrong. I'll catch myself in my "Superman" complex once in awhile now, but it wasn't easy to acknowledge it. Remember, every hand is a completely new game, and every card opens up new avenues for everyone. When you get a quick win, sit back, and play tighter for a hand or two, that usually lets me calm down again and play the right way after that. When you get cocky, you start taking too many chances, and play the more mediocre cards, convinced they will win it for you.

Take your win with a grin...but play the next hand like it was your first.

ScoobyD

Take your win with a grin...but play the next hand like it was your first.

I agree with the "don't get overconfident" , but disagree that you play each hand like you'd just sat down. For 2 reasons:

1) Ideally the longer you play with the certain set of opponents, the better your read should get to be with said opponents.
2) Your table image will change as you play. Ie. If I've just raised the last 4 pots and taken it down without a showdown (or stolen preflop), and the next hand I get AA, you better believe I'm not slowplaying that, as everyone will put me on just playing reckless...

Such a fine line though between playing with confidence, and playing overconfidently...

STR82ACE

You're right. The more you play at a table, the better you get at knowing your opponents, and making smart moves. I was simply referring to a couple of incidents I had recently...bad moves, getting too bold with my assumptions, and getting beaten badly. What worked for me is to take a step back abit, tighten up, and watch the game and your opponents better. Seems to recenter my concentration, and I can start making good calls again.

I'm sure we each have different ways of managing it. Mine is to acknowledge the fact I was getting cocky, and to mentally tell myself to smarten up in the next hands. Seems to work...most of the time. Tough part is admitting I was overconfident to begin with.

boxcard

It is important to play your best poker ALL THE TIME.
I like to think of a tournament being similar to the "Royal Rumble"(tm) in WWE. You put a schwack of guys in the ring, and the last guy left at the end is the winner. During the rumble, you will be guarded, looking for the moment where you have the upper hand on an opponent and then you pounce! Over the top rope he goes! Woohoo!...Oh yeah, I better focus on the other guys still in the ring with me. Get too cocky, and someone will catch you and put you over the top rope.
You have to work on wearing down your opponents by exploiting their weaknesses, while protecting yourself from your own. Winning the battles are fun, but winning the war is where the money is at.

WaterLooser

Boxcard - which wrestler would you be?
I am Hacksaw Jim Duggan all the way. Hooooooooooooooo!

boxcard

Holy cow, does that bring back memories! Believe it or not, my friends used to refer to me as Hacksaw, back when I was much younger and had very long hair. I have my head shaved now, so I don't even look close to like that. I would probably be more like J.R. Foley from Stampede Wrestling now.

BBC Z

Except that the royal rumble winner is predetermined... Hopefully your poker tournament isn't..

boxcard

Are you trying to say that wrestling is fake?

Unknown

It was a very intristing subject , I'am i have lot's to learn from it

Thief

The pre-flop call with KJ is terrible. And you put the guy on KJ??? Sounds like you put him on the only hand that you could justify calling with. If your losing sll your money by the end of the session its no wonder calling $25 with trash like KJ. If you honestly think KJc is ahead then move in pre flop but i think you'll find yourself behind more often then not.