Why can't I fold these cards????

I need some input, I beleive the right thing to do is fold........but.......

when i get dealt anything from 27 to 67 suited or not, I love to play them if I am atleast average stacked, as long as it doesn't get raised more than 4xBB. The problem I have is that if I catch a pair, I usually get sucked in until the river, and if I fold preflop, it seems that double pairing and straightness happens....

I know that I should fold, but damn I love 72, 73, 74....it's like a drug, and why when I fold could I have made a hand???

My question is, should I hit rehab and learn the almighty phraze "FOLD", or is alright to chase a hand with an average stack??

Am I the only one with this addiction??

Rob

Comments

  • I love those hands too, BUT I have learned that playing them you have to ;

    a) prepare to give them up quickly to ANY resistance

    b)only show them if your boss ( if you have a pair of sixes with a two kicicker and you have to show it your back starting from less then zero in image, expect to be raised and reraised so you have to tighten up) Showing a fullhouse with the same hand seems to have the opposite effect for some reason

    c)know WHEN to play them, you have to be the raiser and you have to have those raises respected. My biggest leak is trying to outplay a respectable raise with rags.

    Im sure Dave has a different perspective, but Im a rag player so this is what Ive learned.
  • I know what you mean. I usually call or raise preflop and fold them after the flop if there's no help. It's just my preflop bluffing hand. Whenever I hit it, it tells me it's time to bluff. But they bit me pretty bad in one instance.

    1-2 NL cash

    I hold 7/2 off
    I'm in the BB, 3 limpers, I check.

    Flop comes 2d, 7(idunno), 10s, rainbow. I bet 10. 2 folds, one calls in LP.

    Turn comes 6s. I bet 20. calls.

    River comes As. I check, he goes all in for 26.

    I call, he holds 95s.


    Chased his inside straight and hit the flush.


    Still can't decide whether it was my bad play or his. Should I have raised more? I dunno. But I'll play my 7/2's a little more aggressively next time I get a good flop.
  • My question is, should I hit rehab and learn the almighty phraze "FOLD", or is alright to chase a hand with an average stack??

    Average stack is NOT relevant to the answer. If the average stack is small compared to the blinds then you should not be playing them.

    If YOUR stack is big in comparison to the big blind then I might consider playing some really speculative hands for about 5% of the stack if (1) I have position and (2) I feel my I have a very good grasp on my likely opponents in the hand.

    Any hand can be played profitable by some people. Many hands are losers to most people. You are going to need some serious situational skills if you are mucking around with hands as speculative as you are suggesting.
  • God, ya know I read your advice (and not just this thread), and I think, "Man if I can impliment this advice into my play, I'd be doin alright, this Dave guy knows his s$%t". Then I get to the table, and all I hear is "aah, I'll only play stupid on this one hand....then I'll play smart!" yeah right.
  • Hey, I dole out the advice and then I get to the table and think to myself "What's the harm in raising UTG with 7-6s just this once..."

    It's a disease. You didn't drive to the club to fold all night. And, neither did I. All players tend to look for an excuse to play. Me included. It's the albatross around our collective necks.
  • ...because you haven't lost with them enough.  They are pure trash, suited or not suited, regardless of how much they can "surprise" your opponent, because they can never picture you on a hand like that.  Most often, they don't hold up because they are very vulnerable and don't like to see many streets.  And the trouble these days, is that it is extremely hard to get your opponents to fold a hand -- at any point.  So, you string them along to the turn get them to dump some money in the pot -- heck they'll stick around for the river with their pocket pair cause they have too much invested in the pot, and don't care about your image, what you have or anything else.

    Cheers
    Magi
  • magithighs wrote:
    ...because you haven't lost with them enough. They are pure trash, suited or not suited, regardless of how much they can "surprise" your opponent, because they can never picture you on a hand like that. Most often, they don't hold up because they are very vulnerable and don't like to see many streets. And the trouble these days, is that it is extremely hard to get your opponents to fold a hand -- at any point. So, you string them along to the turn get them to dump some money in the pot -- heck they'll stick around for the river with their pocket pair cause they have too much invested in the pot, and don't care about your image, what you have or anything else.

    Cheers
    Magi

    I disagree, well sort of!

    67s, k3, can get you into a pot in position. They can win you BIG pots and lose you ALOT of small ones.

    Take k3 into a k high flop and yes your afraid of AK, KQ...etc but the pot was unraised right? so you can bet with some confidence.
    But you have to give up to any reistance.... pre or post flop.

    This can do alot of things for you, make you look passive and set up some BIG traps. Make you look like a wild maniac, cheaply if you win or cheeply if you show and muck.
    Not to mention the action you get when you have a hand. Plus it can really piss off some people, I know Im one of them and I know how much my game gets turned when I lay down to shiet, or someone hits two pair with 63 against my AK which hit a king.

    That being said, you cant call into a raise with them hoping to hit, nor can you narrow a big field with a raise with them cause the thing you've narrowed has you beat, and most likely very badly.

    Even if you hit two pair, you may not be good. You have to see what comes and tread VERY carefully.


    That being said, Im a low limit NL player. I play alot more then the top 20 which forces me to be mistake free as my mistakes cost alot.

    This is working for me right now, and I mean over 10000 hands, as I go up in limits Im sure there is going to be an awakening.

    Dave, Magi...any thoughts on this style of play?
  • I almost thought this was a joke when I first read it by quickly....Those hands may win you a few pots, but in the long run they will become serious leaks. I mean the odds of 2 of your suit hitting the flop is what? 8:1 or so? And if your making these calls hoping to make a flush then this could be costing you alot of bets.

    However the suited connectors with no raise is an acceptable play, I'll frequently play them in limit rings games, but I stay away from them in tournament play.
  • I'll frequently play them in limit rings games,

    Thats funny because suited connectors probably get the least amount of implied odds out of limit. You can justify playing suited connectors preflop in NL for their ability to steal a guys stack when you make your hand.

    In limit, you have a tougher case to make for playing them for raises.. You should probably consider reversing your attiude on them.. Play them in NL for baby raises against big stacks and drop them in limit for preflop raises (unless table conditions blah blah blah).
  • Soup66 wrote:
    I almost thought this was a joke when I first read it by quickly....Those hands may win you a few pots, but in the long run they will become serious leaks.

    However the suited connectors with no raise is an acceptable play, I'll frequently play them in limit rings games, but I stay away from them in tournament play.


    No joke, they don't win me a few at all, they hit for me once in a blue moon. When they hit it is usually pretty big because no one puts you on 2-7, 3-7, or 4-7. sooooooted or not I play these cards.

    When I lift the edge and see the 7 and then let a corner drop and see the 2, BBAAAMM, my heart races, I grind my teeth, light a smoke (if I can), my brain says "FOLD A####LE", and my mouth says..."Yeah, I call".

    After the flop, unless I hit high pair (lol), 2 pair, or maybe flush or straight I'm out.No questions, but prreflop, this hand has caused me sometimes nearly 1/3 of my chips. That's the part that I hate and have a problem with. It's like quiting smoking or drugs, ya know ya have too, but one more time ain't gonna kill ya! right?
  • I guess I started this thread to see if it was a legit problem with other players, not necessarily this specific hand, but a no play favorite hand, that you just can't seem to drop.

    And if anybody has found a solution for this bad habit.

    Laugh if you want, but I know this really hurts me in tourney play, and it's almost like I, AAAGGGHHHHH, I dunno, I can't even describe it.

    Have any of you had and fixed a similar card problem?
  • Dave, Magi...any thoughts on this style of play?

    Basically, the question is "Can you play crap suited cards like 7-6s and K-3s, in position if you can get in cheap?"

    The answer: Yes, of course, if the circunmstances are right.

    But... it's not that easy.

    I have spend A LOT of time modelling playing styles v. profitable plays. There are LOTS of players that you can play against PROFITABLY if you are holding K-3s, in position, for a small fee. Interestingly enough, if you can play K-3s profitably against PLAYER X, you can probably play ANY TWO CARDS against him -- all other things being equal (i.e. position and single bet). Generally, this is the "limp steal" package of hands. The key is having an excllent grasp of your opponent. And, understand that this is a very high variance way to play.
  • As to the original question: Yes, I have a huge problem with some hands.

    Time in the trenches seems to have saved it for me, I guess. My big "favourite hand leak" is suited aces. Dang, they look sweet when I lay eyes on them.

    Force of will + time in trenches seems to have more or less solved it. Also, playing four games at once online makes it easier. You are ALWAYS playing hands so it's not as hard to be patient. Patience is not my strong suit.
  • The truth behind my joke, is that only experience will help you get away from trash hands  -- as Dave says, time in the trenches.  What's cured me of my habit of playing trash is my realization that I can badly mangle normal hands like QJs or QTs.  So, for me I try to stay within the group of seven hand range.  When I can master those, and snatch the pebble from Dave's hand, I'll venture out.

    Cheers
    Magi
  • Who's that guy that says "look for a reason to fold"? ;)
  • Your guys outlook on suited connectors surprises me. .
    If I'm in late position in an unraised pot preflop, ill often raise with suited connectors. The reason why is this;
    If a bunch of paint comes up, i can fire off a big bet. This is of course risky, and sometimes i lose a bit, but in general, these players are going to put me on some of that, so often right there the pot is mine.
    If however, the pot comes for a straight or flush draw, or i hit a set, then not many players are putting me on that, because i raised preflop, and i can get a lot of value out of the hand.

    That being said, unlike a lot of internet players atleast, I do NOT stand a raise preflop, and if someone has raised infront of me, they are going into the muck.
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