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Purposely exposing hand after betting/preflop
A "funny" thing happened at the Port Perry tourney Last Wednesday.
Final table, blinds 4000/8000 or maybe 5000/10,000. I forget the players position but I think it was utg +1 he has around 100,000 chip I believe.
Utg limps and then utg+1 raises all in and immediately flips over Aces. The next player did not have a chance to act. The hand is stopped while the dealer asks "the boss" what to do. The boss calls the entire hand dead and the money is returned to the proper players and re dealt.
The offender apologizes saying that he hates aces and thought he was allowed to open his own cards.
I know that some places do allow this type of crap but here is what I am thinking..
The offender's hand should have been mucked and his chips returned to him while the hand continues on.
What if he had pulled that move with KK and a player yet to act had AA?
Final table, blinds 4000/8000 or maybe 5000/10,000. I forget the players position but I think it was utg +1 he has around 100,000 chip I believe.
Utg limps and then utg+1 raises all in and immediately flips over Aces. The next player did not have a chance to act. The hand is stopped while the dealer asks "the boss" what to do. The boss calls the entire hand dead and the money is returned to the proper players and re dealt.
The offender apologizes saying that he hates aces and thought he was allowed to open his own cards.
I know that some places do allow this type of crap but here is what I am thinking..
The offender's hand should have been mucked and his chips returned to him while the hand continues on.
What if he had pulled that move with KK and a player yet to act had AA?
Comments
If this were to continue, I could see someone taking advantage of the ruling. Flipping up bad pocket cards in blinds and argue for a redeal.
Having played in a tourny at York U and having someone with the action turn over his cards just so he could try to get a read on me (everyone at the table said it was legal ! ) and then having seen a Toronto guy in the PartyPoker Euro championship at the final table do the same thing, I just want everyone to keep it in their pants until it's time to show. Â /rant_plus_runonsentencemode off
Guess we need another answer. Â :D
Or what about with 72o for the purpose of simply creating a misdeal?
If there was no penalty beyond the "penalty" of redealing the hand, this is absurd.
Turning over your hole cards, or even stating what your hole cards are, are clear and punishable violations of proper tournament rules/ethics.
ScottyZ
ie -- if an opponent goes all in you can flip your cards prior to acting to see his response when heads up.
I've never seen a set of standard tournament rules where any rule changes based on the number of players who are currently in the pot.
Warning: The types of angle shooting allowed/disallowed at your home game or local tournament may differ.
ScottyZ
I suggested the same to one of the pit bosses at the time and he didn't understand my point so I just let it go since I figured this won't happen again at this table. Also there is no point to pulling that move with crappy cards since you can just fold them and wait for the next/better hand..(unless you're the SB/BB)
But yes I do see your point.
Doyle describes this move in his book SS'2 and I know guys have seen it on TV so now some players think it is ok, and it is some places. All aces had this move pulled on him at one of the local bigger games and there was no penalty. All aces had a better hand.
A buddy pulled this crap at my home game when I was out of the room so I have now added 1 more rule to my game. The offender's cards go into the muck.
I don't believe this is accurate. SirWatts and I were playing recently at the same table at the UofW when a very talkative player did this. SirWatts let him know politely that you were not allowed to do this. He vehemently disagreed. I piped up in support of SirWatts. Anyway, this guy wouldn't let it go, he said he had seen it on WPT...so it must be okay! I agree with Scotty that it is against the rules/ethics of poker, even when heads up. Can anyone find a link to a ruling that states this particular rule? Thanks.
stp
So it was unfortunate for him but I still don't like it.
I think I might have slowrolled him simply by some surprise he put me allin. I'll try not to slowroll again in future.Â
Live and learn.
The TDA rules aren't too specific about it. They state that a player may be penalized for doing this, but doesn't describe what sort of penalty (or penalites) to give, or in what kind of circumstances (first-time offence, repeat offence, doing it accidentally).
That sounds like you're running a tight ship rules-wise. In other words, I'd probably like to play in your game. :cool:
While I personally like this rule/penalty the best, do you allow any exceptions based on someone accidentally showing a hand prematurely?
ScottyZ
-You are welcome to join my game anytime! It is easy to run a tight ship when it is the same guys and they all know the rules. Guess what? We always start on time too.
Of course, I'm not a poker nazi.
#8.Penalties: A penalty MAY be invoked if a player exposes any card with action pending, if a card(s) goes off the table, if soft-play occurs, or similar incidents take place. Penalties WILL be invoked in cases of abuse, disruptive behavior, or similar incidents.
#35.Penalties available for use by the TD are verbal warnings, 10, 20, 30, and 40 minutes away from the table and may be used with discretion. These may be utilized up to and including disqualification. A player who is disqualified shall have his chips removed from play.
#37.A player who exposes his cards during the play may incur a penalty, but will not have his hand killed.
He showed his hand after the river and before the first to act could act. The player who showed had the nuts and was basically doing it to prevent (!?!?!?) the other player from losing more money. It turns out they were friends. I mentioned that the guy can’t show his cards (A) before the person in turn can act and (B) out of turn. The dealer shrugged it off and didn’t care. I had someone else agree with me but since everyone else didn’t care, it was dropped. The point I am making is the rules tend to lean towards the majority it seems.
I do wonder if I was the player whose turn it was to act and this guy flipped over his cards what would have happened. I would have complained but it would have looked like I was a sore loser.
Our rule is clear in any Tournament, be it a sit 'n go or The Tournament of Champions: expose a hand to anyone and that hand is dead and any monies wagered is forfeit to the pot. We do not do "penalties" such as ½ hr. etc. our only recourse to repeated violation is to ask the player to leave and their money would be forfeit to the Prize Pool.
I'm very disappointed to hear this happened especially since the dealer involved is one of our better and more experienced dealers ... but I guess as the saying goes ... "stuff happens"
Cheers,
Lee
action pending includes YOU still having to act? i think exposing your cards should be ok if only you are left to act and there is no chance of action behind you, other words, only if it is heads up and you are debating whether to call a bet for the rest of your chips. In that case there is no way anyone can use the information you are giving them
Yes, there is action pending, namely your upcoming action.
Technically, there is nothing to debate here anyway, due to the word "may" in the corresponding penalty.
More important than whatever rule is in effect, many dealers will interpret you intentionally turning your cards face up without saying "call" or moving any chips as folding your hand. An angle shooter attempting this sort of play runs the risk of having his hand mucked.
ScottyZ
And anytime someone shows you both of his cards, to call or fold is a simple math problem.
When the action is not heads up, the showing of cards is clearly wrong.
With this guy going all in and immediatly flippin over aces, its his own loss really, somebody might have called his all in and he could have made profit off of it, i think its terrible eticate, but i like what they did, he lost a lot more by showing the aces...stupid move trying too look cool
B