Full house with over pair losing to 4 of a kind - is this a cooler?

TrophyAngler

I had a hand recently in cash game where I was UTG. I had pocket jacks but couldn’t 3 bet since I was first to bet. Everyone folded except button.

Flop: 9, 9, 5 rainbow I bet half pot. Button calls
Turn: 9 D. Again I bet half
River: 3 D. Making a flush possible. I bet all-in with much higher full house than 9’s and 5’s assuming that if the villain had queens, kings or aces they would have 3 bet preflop so I was almost sure I had it.

Turns out villain had king 9 off suit and beats me on 4 of a kind.

Did I play this poorly or is this a cooler? I mean how can I expect him to have 4 of a kind. I suppose I could check and if he goes all in I fold but I honestly don’t think I can fold here. Where did I go wrong?

2jax

Sometimes all the right moves can be made and still lose. The cards are already defined, and the choices of the other players are completely out of our control. That 9 on the turn, turned out to be your ultimate demise when you thought it gave you the winner over sets, full houses, and flushes that your opponent could be on.

At each street along the way, what cards did you think the opponent may have had? Had you been watching their play at all prior to this hand? How was their behaviour during the hand, especially on the turn? Any tells?

TrophyAngler

I thought the villain had one of the following: trip 9’s (maybe on the flop), then with 3rd nine I thought they had full house with 5’s or possibly slightly higher full house but lower than mine since they didn’t 3 bet (pairs of 6-8s) or were on flush draw which hit on river. Is that not logical thinking? Should I really assume they have 4 of a kind? Should you ever assume that?

MrCaspan

So when I first started to play poker I had no idea what betting was for. I only knew what my cards were and that's all that mattered! How far I have come LOL


So first of all if you have the second nuts as you have deduced. IE AA, KK, QQ would have 3 bet you preflop unless they are a monster and checked their high value pair So the only thing you loose to is a 9. What are the odds that this player has a 9? VERY LOW so if you put this into a solver how many times would you have it? Probably like 49:1 I would assume since there is only a 2% chance of them getting this card. If I offered you those odds on anything would you take it?? Of course you would, so there is no question there. Just keep putting your money in in these situations over and over and over again and start printing cash!!!

With only 1 person in the pot why are you doing a 50% pot size bet? Not that it's wrong or right I am just curious why you choose that sizing? If you have sound logical reasoning for it then it's just a cool and almost impossible to get away from it! If your bets are too high then you paid more then you should of!!

TrophyAngler

I was doing 50% on flop because I was nervous they actually had 3 of a kind (not a set but but trips) or the full house with 5’s so didn’t want to bet too big but still build pot but not get killed on a massive overbet reraise. Once the turn came I did 50% again as a value bet because I thought I had it. When villain called again I thought well maybe they’ll just give me all their cash if they do indeed have the 5 high full house or a flush. I actually probably could have gone lower on flop at 33% bet to be honest and I guess higher on turn. Not that it mattered. I’m quite sure they would jam on any river bet and I still call. 😂

MrCaspan

True. You don't have a lot of info on the flop either The buttons range is not huge but not narrow either if they are only calling. If they raised you, you could at least narrow their range down a bit but If you look at the range of hands you should call with on the button ~100BB vs UTG open it's hard to put them on a hand. That's where knowing the player better helps to narrow it down. I feel like a 50% bet on the flop either scares them away or gives you knowledge, so I feel like personally it's fine but that's my justification for it.

Again this all assumes that the player you are playing understands anything about poker and ICM and position and is not doing what ever they please because they have no clue

MrCaspan

Just as an FYI I put K9o in my GTO range charts vs UTG open and there is no scenario where they should EVER call in any position other than SB or BB. BB should defend it seems 100% of the time unless really low stacked. Dude should not have been in this hand!

EdtheTed

Yes, you got coolered. You are never folding your full house, so that is life (and poker). Move along to the next hand sir!

TrophyAngler

MrCaspan wrote: »

True. You don't have a lot of info on the flop either The buttons range is not huge but not narrow either if they are only calling. If they raised you, you could at least narrow their range down a bit but If you look at the range of hands you should call with on the button ~100BB vs UTG open it's hard to put them on a hand. That's where knowing the player better helps to narrow it down. I feel like a 50% bet on the flop either scares them away or gives you knowledge, so I feel like personally it's fine but that's my justification for it.

Again this all assumes that the player you are playing understands anything about poker and ICM and position and is not doing what ever they please because they have no clue

TrophyAngler

Yeah, I forgot to mention it’s $0.5/$.10 blinds and villain who was on button had $6.95 left of stack. Also, only limited data because that’s what WSOP allows but player had played 100% of hands. I think I got screwed by a fish. I find it the most frustrating when you get wrecked because of bad play by others 😂

MrCaspan

I always think about it the other way around. Replay the same hand but the bet on the river gets them to fold.. AKA a cooler that never happened

I play the 5¢/10¢ on WSOP. It's a really soft game and the skills are all over the place at this level. You have to deal with a lot of variance because of this. Take you time on these tables and keep notes then exploit the fish!

thisORthat

If anyone has GTO Wizard, please post the prescribed course of actions here.

MrCaspan

GTO says if you have K9o on the button with single opponent (EP open) at any stack depth... 100% always a fold! That's what the image above shows.