Call or Raise the blinds...

Came back from Asia yesterday, and hopped on the computer for a few orbits of Hold'em.

I played KQ from the SB today (online). And also had AJo on the button. I called the halfbet with the KQo in the small blind, thinking I was out of position and there were several players (limpers) already.

I raised AJo from the button, thinking I had position.

Any ideas on playing KQ, AJ, or AT from LP, EP , MP or the blinds?????

stoneskn

Comments

  • Hey stoneskn. Welcome back!

    When's the next homegame? ;)

    I like limping in with these hands on the blind and EP... raising from MP and LP.
  • Thanks hork. I'm not so keen on raising them from the blinds either, just a recipe for disaster. And why do you have 4 stars?

    felipe
  • stoneskn wrote:
    And why do you have 4 stars?

    I think it's related to # of total posts.
  • Any ideas on playing KQ, AJ, or AT from LP, EP , MP or the blinds?Huh?

    Unsuited limp, suited raise KQ against a large field and depending on how loose the table is, raise that AJs/ATs.
  • Suitedness really doesnt add much to a hand....about 3 or 4 % against a single random hand.

    People overvalue suitedness a lot. Whether or not KQ is suited should have WAYYYYYYYYYY less bearing on your decision than your reads of people, the table conditions and your table image. Lots of pros talk about this.

    To make rules like this is also pretty silly.

    The answer, like most, is..........DEPENDS
  • People overvalue suitedness a lot. Whether or not KQ is suited should have WAYYYYYYYYYY less bearing on your decision than your reads of people, the table conditions and your table image.

    True and true.

    Hopefully this can help us see that it really really really really matters to the analysis that the OP forgot to mention if he was playing a game like Party $0.50/$1.00, Paradise $5/$10, or Stars $100/$200.
    The answer, like most, is..........DEPENDS

    That's kind of what I was thinking. :)

    For example, in a game like Party $0.50/$1.00, my reads of people don't matter much, the table conditions are very loose and passive, my table image doesn't matter very much, and suitedness of high card hands (particularly Aces) matters a great deal.

    Furthermore, I'd expect typical pros have little to say about suitedness of hands in such a game. ;)

    ScottyZ
  • Phippo44 wrote:
    Suitedness really doesnt add much to a hand....about 3 or 4 % against a single random hand.

    Right. If you are heads up with the Button or something, the suitedness adds 3-4% to your hand. If you are up aginst 8 callers, that 3-4% increase is against a massive field making for a must-exploit raise situation.
    People overvalue suitedness a lot. Whether or not KQ is suited should have WAYYYYYYYYYY less bearing on your decision than your reads of people, the table conditions and your table image. Lots of pros talk about this.

    You undervalue suited cards. By simply having two cards that are suited, you can make a hand that will beat pair, two pair, sets and straights. When you miss you fold cheaply, when you make your draw do you think you aren't going to be paid off?

    Lets talk about why we care about suitedness in the SB/BB. Why does Miller suggest to open raise AJo UTG, but only check with it in the BB? It's because it's an offsuit hand that doesn't want to play multiway and can suffer badly from domination. It has few redraws to stay alive when AQ is playing on an A-high flop. Now, why does he recommend to raise AJs from the SB/BB? Because that flush draw is a money maker can those 'few extra percents' matter BIG TIME when talking about EV of hands. You can win with the A and when you face domination you STILL have draws to take that pot.
    To make rules like this is also pretty silly.

    It's called a GUIDELINE. It's not a phophetic commandment cast in stone for the ages to sing stories about.
    The answer, like most, is..........DEPENDS

    Heres the problem: We want to actually talk about SOMETHING. So while it's all fine and great for you to sit back there and say "Well it depends on the situation" you aren't actually contribute anything useful. Every poker situation can always be explained away as "well it's depends". We can either all sit around drooling on ourselves and saying "It depends" OR we can talk about general ways to play hands in general situations.
  • Here's the problem:

    Two posters might offer different opinions on a hand analysis when they are uninofrmed of the game conditions. Both may have good ideas for the (different) games they have in mind, post two different strategy tips, and have a disagreement. Happens all the time it seems.
    It's not a phophetic commandment cast in stone for the ages to sing stories about.

    Speak for yourself. I've currently got Philip Glass working on a orchestra + choir version of my starting hand requirements. The deep-voiced guy from Koyaanisqatsi is slated to do the lead vocals.

    Pooooooooooooooooock-et A-ceeeeeeeeeeeeees.
    We can either all sit around drooling on ourselves...

    Speak for yourself...

    ScottyZ
  • Two posters might offer different opinions on a hand analysis when they are uninofrmed of the game conditions. Both may have good ideas for the (different) games they have in mind, post two different strategy tips, and have a disagreement. Happens all the time it seems.

    Probably because if I see another post featuring ConfusedOne replying with a smiley or WPTGirl responding to any thread with '......................................' I'm going to go insane.
  • BBC Z wrote:
    Two posters might offer different opinions on a hand analysis when they are uninofrmed of the game conditions. Both may have good ideas for the (different) games they have in mind, post two different strategy tips, and have a disagreement. Happens all the time it seems.

    Probably because if I see another post featuring ConfusedOne replying with a smiley or WPTGirl responding to any thread with '......................................' I'm going to go insane.
    :wav:
  • Fair enough BBC. But lets straighten out a few things first. I dont undervalue suited cards, thanks for the in depth analysis though. In fact, I think I am a little too in love with suited connectors. My point was that if the decision on whether to limp or fold KQ from the SB (in a mutiway pot? we were never told. Scotty is right - we're making different assumptions) is completely, or significantly for that matter based on whether the KQ is or is not suited, then I think it's important to step back and take a good look at the big picture.

    In fact, I think in a very large multiway pot (aka PP 0.50-1.00 limit) with say 5-9 limpers, its probably more +EV to call a half bet in the SB than to fold with almost any 2 cards. (But I'm not 100% - I'll run some tests in Turbo). Folding KQo in this situation must be more -EV than calling here. Yeah the extra few percent do matter big time over the long run if you do have the benefit of suitedness, but not enough to make folding here correct. Now, lets say we only have 1-4 limpers.....now the 3-4% matters less, and the high card value of the KQ increases. (maybe the connectedness does too but probably not as much as the high card value). I just don't see a situation where it would be correct to fold KQo for a half bet in any situation in the SB. I agree the suitedness helps, and it is important in the long run. If you're tossing KQo in this situation, I think that's a large leak.

    It doesn't matter what Miller, Sklansky, Brunson, Caro or Ronald McDonald say about playing specific hands specific ways, it is the rationale that matters. And while I agree completely on the rationale of Miller's advice, you will find some very questionable advice (or, more accurately, some very dangerous ways of interpreting various advice) in a lot of books. For instance, people have said to me that McEvoy hates AKo, and advises tossing it (for no raise) in limit from EP. They clearly misinterpreted his advice, and this is the danger of situational guidelines - they are often taken too literally. The rationale behind the advice is way more important than the hand/situation specific advice.

    So while you may be led to believe that I am adding nothing to this forum by saying 'it depends', would you prefer that I give hand specific advice that may be read by a beginner, who may act on that advice and lose money on it without understanding the underlying thought process behind it? No it's not a prophetic commandment, but it was a very specific situation and very specific advice.

    Let us leave the drooling to the dogs and drunks, I'm here to discuss thought processes behind decisions. The last time I checked, there were no fleas on me, what about you?

    Woof.

    Phippo44
  • Phippo44 wrote:
    My point was that if the decision on whether to limp or fold KQ from the SB (in a mutiway pot? we were never told. Scotty is right - we're making different assumptions) is completely, or significantly for that matter based on whether the KQ is or is not suited, then I think it's important to step back and take a good look at the big picture.

    Can you appreciate the idea that a suited hand is worth more than it's unsuited brother? That it's more valuable? And that it can be so much more valuable that it turns a call into a raise?
    In fact, I think in a very large multiway pot (aka PP 0.50-1.00 limit) with say 5-9 limpers, its probably more +EV to call a half bet in the SB than to fold with almost any 2 cards. (But I'm not 100% - I'll run some tests in Turbo). Folding KQo in this situation must be more -EV than calling here. Yeah the extra few percent do matter big time over the long run if you do have the benefit of suitedness, but not enough to make folding here correct. Now, lets say we only have 1-4 limpers.....now the 3-4% matters less, and the high card value of the KQ increases. (maybe the connectedness does too but probably not as much as the high card value). I just don't see a situation where it would be correct to fold KQo for a half bet in any situation in the SB. I agree the suitedness helps, and it is important in the long run. If you're tossing KQo in this situation, I think that's a large leak.

    1) Actually,your biggest leak can be not RAISING these hands.

    http://www.internettexasholdem.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?p=46413#46413

    2) I don't understand why you are defending folding. I never said 'If it's unsuited fold, if it's suited call'.
    It doesn't matter what Miller, Sklansky, Brunson, Caro or Ronald McDonald say about playing specific hands specific ways, it is the rationale that matters. And while I agree completely on the rationale of Miller's advice, you will find some very questionable advice (or, more accurately, some very dangerous ways of interpreting various advice) in a lot of books.

    You missed my point. I quote Miller because I respect the man and his play. I used AJ/AJs as an example of a hand where you want to simply CALL when it's unsuited and RAISE when it's suited. I already explained the reasons.
    For instance, people have said to me that McEvoy hates AKo, and advises tossing it (for no raise) in limit from EP. They clearly misinterpreted his advice, and this is the danger of situational guidelines - they are often taken too literally. The rationale behind the advice is way more important than the hand/situation specific advice.

    The people that say that are the ones that didnt read the book in the first place.
    So while you may be led to believe that I am adding nothing to this forum by saying 'it depends', would you prefer that I give hand specific advice that may be read by a beginner, who may act on that advice and lose money on it without understanding the underlying thought process behind it? No it's not a prophetic commandment, but it was a very specific situation and very specific advice.

    Actually, I found your statement about suitness so offensively wrong that it was the primary reason I responsed the way I did. You present the opinion that 'Suitedness only accounts for a few percentage of EV, so it should rarely factor into your decision to play a hand". This advice is just bad. Suited big cards help your win monster pots and those 'few extra percentages' are actually ridiculously profitable in the long term. You offer no justification (Think of those poor newbies that took your crappy advice to heart!) but then attempt to defend your "It depends" statements as not corrupting the minds of new players.
    The last time I checked, there were no fleas on me, what about you?

    It depends.
  • BBC Z wrote:
    Phippo44 wrote:
    My point was that if the decision on whether to limp or fold KQ from the SB (in a mutiway pot? we were never told. Scotty is right - we're making different assumptions) is completely, or significantly for that matter based on whether the KQ is or is not suited, then I think it's important to step back and take a good look at the big picture.

    Can you appreciate the idea that a suited hand is worth more than it's unsuited brother? That it's more valuable? And that it can be so much more valuable that it turns a call into a raise?

    Yes,didn't I CLEARLY indicate that? Doesn't the assertion of 3 or 4% EXPLICITY mean that it is worth MO0RE?!!!! Can it turn a call into a raise? Sure, I guess.

    a.) ALL I WAS SAYING IS THAT THERE ARE WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY MORE IMPORTANT FACTORS THAN WHETHER ITS SUITED OR NOT. A BEGINNER READING YOUR POST WOULD LIKE ONLY ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THE SUITEDNESS IS THE MAJOR DETERMINING FACTOR OF HOW TO PLAY THIS.
    In fact, I think in a very large multiway pot (aka PP 0.50-1.00 limit) with say 5-9 limpers, its probably more +EV to call a half bet in the SB than to fold with almost any 2 cards. (But I'm not 100% - I'll run some tests in Turbo). Folding KQo in this situation must be more -EV than calling here. Yeah the extra few percent do matter big time over the long run if you do have the benefit of suitedness, but not enough to make folding here correct. Now, lets say we only have 1-4 limpers.....now the 3-4% matters less, and the high card value of the KQ increases. (maybe the connectedness does too but probably not as much as the high card value). I just don't see a situation where it would be correct to fold KQo for a half bet in any situation in the SB. I agree the suitedness helps, and it is important in the long run. If you're tossing KQo in this situation, I think that's a large leak.

    1) Actually,your biggest leak can be not RAISING these hands.

    http://www.internettexasholdem.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?p=46413#46413

    2) I don't understand why you are defending folding. I never said 'If it's unsuited fold, if it's suited call'.
    It doesn't matter what Miller, Sklansky, Brunson, Caro or Ronald McDonald say about playing specific hands specific ways, it is the rationale that matters. And while I agree completely on the rationale of Miller's advice, you will find some very questionable advice (or, more accurately, some very dangerous ways of interpreting various advice) in a lot of books.

    You missed my point. I quote Miller because I respect the man and his play. I used AJ/AJs as an example of a hand where you want to simply CALL when it's unsuited and RAISE when it's suited. I already explained the reasons.

    B) Fine, this has nothing to do with Miller I could NOT care less whether or not you respect him, or anyone else for that matter.You are once again giving advice on exact was to play precise hands in exact circumstances which can be misleading. Instead of saying 'you want to simply CALL' you should say 'there is a significant EV advantage in raising AJs relative to AJo'. Is it always correct to raise AJs UTG - No goddam way. Can it be right to raise with 27o UTG -YES!!!!!!!!!!!!! Is it usually, no. You are isolating how to play the cards from how to play the table, which can be dangerous.
    For instance, people have said to me that McEvoy hates AKo, and advises tossing it (for no raise) in limit from EP. They clearly misinterpreted his advice, and this is the danger of situational guidelines - they are often taken too literally. The rationale behind the advice is way more important than the hand/situation specific advice.

    The people that say that are the ones that didnt read the book in the first place.

    Nope. This is an actual occurence. I know someone who interpreted this. YES they read the book. The person in question is actually very intelligent, just a poker newbie, that's all. Why would I bring it up if the person I was talking about hadn't read the book? How many newbies would randomly start talking about some guy name McEvoy's advice on how to play one particular hand in some book they have never picked up? Think about it before you type next time.
    So while you may be led to believe that I am adding nothing to this forum by saying 'it depends', would you prefer that I give hand specific advice that may be read by a beginner, who may act on that advice and lose money on it without understanding the underlying thought process behind it? No it's not a prophetic commandment, but it was a very specific situation and very specific advice.

    Actually, I found your statement about suitness so offensively wrong that it was the primary reason I responsed the way I did. You present the opinion that 'Suitedness only accounts for a few percentage of EV, so it should rarely factor into your decision to play a hand". This advice is just bad. Suited big cards help your win monster pots and those 'few extra percentages' are actually ridiculously profitable in the long term. You offer no justification (Think of those poor newbies that took your crappy advice to heart!) but then attempt to defend your "It depends" statements as not corrupting the minds of new players.

    So offensively wrong?! Are you fu**ing kidding me? Question: what is the biggest determinant of success in a given poker session? Table selection. Question: what separates good from great (and average from good) players? Reading ability. Question: what is one of the first things a low limit newbie LHE player should learn? A basic understanding of drawing vs. pot odds.....

    Ok. this is getting out of hand....My point is that there are SO MANY factors more important to +EV, WAYYY more important than suited vs. non suitedness. It would be safer for you to make the following assertion, but you didn't so I will:

    Beginning players need to learn how different starting hands play in different situations against different types and numbers of opponents.

    Done.

    I am sorry this post had to get a little nasty, but you're failing to realize my point:


    By saying IT DEPENDS it opens up the minds of new players that there are different situations that dictate different actions. To get them thinking about this is the point here.

    So many good poker books and good poker advice (and bad) is taken too literally by rookies. Some mechanically play starting hand charts, some do EXACTLY what Slanksky suggests (some of which is uncategorically incorrect when removed from a mathematical analysis framework), and these people get hung up on specific things without any regard for the more important aspects of the game - table image, tilt, reading, position...etc. That is all my point is and I couldn't give a rat's ass whether or not there is some tiny blip of extra +EV associated with raising KQs with X # of limpers from the SB at relatively loose passive table while wearing a toque playing in a barn in Saskatoon on a Sunday in July.


    The last time I checked, there were no fleas on me, what about you?

    It depends.
  • Is that you Magi? You almost fooled me.
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