Hand discussion Sunday 530 bounty builder final 13

Hello everyone :) Would love to get your feedback on a hand I played deep in a tournament a while ago. My thought process was that villain arrive at the river with a lot of 7x Jx like (56,67,97,87) that decided to defend the bb as well as some A high of his own and thought it made sense to put villain to the test having the 10of clubs trying to rep a K or a flush , could I have found better hands to bluff ?


https://gg.gl/05ccp

Comments

  • Min raising, though for some reason popular nowadays, preflop is awful.

    What hand ISN'T correct to call 80k into a 36k pot? 4.5:1? Even if he puts you on AA, that basically eliminates A9 to A6 (the worst hands to crack AA), and 72/4 gappers. You get no information other than that with min raises. Add to this your ATo isn't AA strong it is literally correct to call with everything.

    Villain played correctly at every point in this hand.

    Had you always been raising min the entire way?

    Mark
  • MrCaspanMrCaspan Admin
    edited May 3
    Well lets break ot down as there is a lot of info here

    - Blinds were 40K/80K/12K anti
    - You were sitting at about 20BB and the villain was sitting at about 15.3BB
    -The stack to your left was 64.7
    -You had a bounty of $2183
    -There were 7 at the table and you were in MP
    -There is no mention of ladder of bubble so there is no way to calculate ICM which is probably VERY high at this point of a tournament and really important
    -You were not facing an opening bet and you opened betting
    - Game is a $525 progressive bounty hunter high stakes game (AKA lots of regs and a few fish)


    That is what I can gather was important from the video pre flop

    PreFlop
    -Preflop action you opened 2BB which when you are at this short of a stack is a typical open from MP based on watching other high stakes players (Kevin Martin)

    - My range charts I have are only for 8 players but at 20-30BB ATo is 100% a raise no calling no folding in that position and range. So again your open was standard based on GTO but it's at the very bottom of the range and I would even do some disciplined folds here
    ezsnrke8n3vk.png

    - It folded around to the BB that was looking at a 364K pot and only has to call 80K more to call. They are getting 4.5:1 pot odds which is great, and they are closing the action.

    - This is the BB vs MP open range based on their stack, basically calling EVERYTHING haha and a few shoves
    y3sy8e3rvds5.png

    - Your bounty is big so that can change peoples calling ranges even for BB

    - You get no information on the BB call because pot odds, bounty

    Post flop
    - You have position
    - Flop comes down more in your range then theirs (based on GTO ranges)
    - you flopped a gut shot straight draw
    - 2 clubs come down you have 1 club for card removal so that's something.
    - You have an over card

    This is a great flop for you! Also I have no idea what this player has done before so I have no idea if this is a rec or reg player that knows ranges so I am just going to assume they do playing at this stake but it's important info to know.

    -The check to you is standard because if they connected they know that you should be c-betting 75% of the time here (it's just money in the pot for them) or they have nothing.
    -Your Bet of 210K (2.6BB) looks to be about 50% pot and is a standard cbet IMO. You want to show aggressions as the pre flop raiser, there are draws out there, the flop has a wet texture. you want to charge any drawing hands to peel the turn.

    - Their call looks standard also as they have to assume you are c-betting if you hit or missed that flop. Lets see a river!!

    River
    - The 4d is a total brick to me and even if they connected with it they know the flop was in your range so it might not have helped them at all.
    - Time for you to apply pressure using your position and equity (fold equity) This is your chance to get information. This is a shove or another 50% pot size bet.

    It looks like you started to play with scared chips here. What's your opinion of your had at this point? the rest of the hand auto plays because of stack sizes

    I'm on my phone on the bus so ignore bad spelling and quick typing.

  • MrCaspanMrCaspan Admin
    edited May 3
    DrTyore wrote: »
    Min raising, though for some reason popular nowadays, preflop is awful. You get no information other than that with min raises.

    I know @DrTyore that you hate min raises , here is my 2 cents. When you are running deep in a tournament and are getting below 30-35BB this is the correct play. Every BB matters so much when you are this low! Why risk chips if you don't need to? Yes you don't get the information you normally would, but by going bigger than a 2BB raise you are bloating the pot and usually pot committing yourself by the turn. 2 BB bet allows you to raise it the minimum and still get information from the table except from the BB.

    Let's say you allow the BB 30% of the time to win because you min raised and priced in the BB. They nail a card that beats your hand! SO 30% of the time you loose but hat means 70% of the time you are winning because they have trash that you got to put chips in that normally would not. What better way to get trash hands to commit chips!!

    Yeh it sucks being put out of a tournament in these situations but so does getting stuck in a hand on the turn saying "How the fuck did I put myself in this position?" You flopped a middling hand or a drawing hand, you are pot committed against another payer who most likely has a decent hand. In this position you are now winning 25% of the time and loosing 75%. If you actually raise to 2.2 or 2.5 BB you are screaming premium hands and you get the blinds only.

    Ill take the min raise any day and this is only my opinion based on my math and watching the higher stake players do it on streams and explain it kind of like this. I could be 100% wrong, just like Phil Hellmuth thinks AKo is better than AKs because with AKo at least you have 2 chances of making a flush compared to only one chance with AKs you can make math do what ever you want :)
  • C-bet is too high, you can get the same information from a 1/3 pot size bet (130-140k)- once called, he likely has a piece of the board. Just check it down to the river. His river bet is tiny and is definitely a blocker bet but your shove is very polarizing, its nuts or nothing.
    If you really wanted a call, you would raise his 80k bet to 300k, rather than shove.
    There is no reason to go broke in this spot.
    DrTyore
  • edited May 3
    I don't know how multi-quote works, so I'll put my stuff in bold
    MrCaspan wrote: »
    I know @DrTyore that you hate min raises , here is my 2 cents. When you are running deep in a tournament and are getting below 30-35BB this is the correct play. Every BB matters so much when you are this low! Why risk chips if you don't need to? Yes you don't get the information you normally would, but by going bigger than a 2BB raise you are bloating the pot and usually pot committing yourself by the turn. 2 BB bet allows you to raise it the minimum and still get information from the table except from the BB.

    This proves my point. I'm not saying go 5x, but 2.5 times the blinds? Run that through your solvers. Your very chart you posted above shows that it's right to call with what I'd said, anything except a 4+ gapper. That means that not only is he right to call with any of these, but you're not making them make a big enough mistake. If "every BB matters", it matters for both, and he's going to defend - let's make it a mistake.
    MrCaspan wrote: »
    Let's say you allow the BB 30% of the time to win because you min raised and priced in the BB. They nail a card that beats your hand! SO 30% of the time you loose but hat means 70% of the time you are winning because they have trash that you got to put chips in that normally would not. What better way to get trash hands to commit chips!!

    You're making up numbers here to justify your position. If someone was ridiculously tight, sure I may raise min, but only for very specific reasons. In terms of making the right play, see my above comments in this thread.
    MrCaspan wrote: »
    Yeh it sucks being put out of a tournament in these situations but so does getting stuck in a hand on the turn saying "How the fuck did I put myself in this position?" In this particular case, it's because you min-raised. You flopped a middling hand or a drawing hand, you are pot committed against another payer who most likely has a decent hand.


    If you min raised and are pot committed, you should have just open shoved. If you min raised, there's no way of telling if the villain has a "decent hand" or not.
    MrCaspan wrote: »
    In this position you are now winning 25% of the time and loosing 75%. If you actually raise to 2.2 or 2.5 BB you are screaming premium hands and you get the blinds only.

    Versus.... remind me what happened in this hand? Even if he didn't bluff shove river, he's losing more than he would have with 2.5x bet
    MrCaspan wrote: »
    Ill take the min raise any day and this is only my opinion based on my math and watching the higher stake players do it on streams

    This is the same phenomenon when everyone wanted to be Daniel Negreanu and play "small ball" (which, ya this is kinda still what we're discussing). Problem is, Daniel Negreanu is DN, and we're all a bunch of unevolved monkeys comparatively. I'm trying to think of an analogy... maybe start juggling with bean bags and not chainsaws? Get the basic fundamentals down, keep yourself out of needing to make deft moves and reads, and keep the game simple for yourself.

    Hope this doesn't come off as dickish, had to type fast while procrastinating at work

    Mark

  • MrCaspanMrCaspan Admin
    edited May 4
    I fixed your quotes for you and ill go over the comments when I have some time, and don't worry I already think you're dickish ;)
  • MrCaspanMrCaspan Admin
    edited May 4
    @DrTyore just to focus on one point so we are not all over the place, MP open vs BB call. If MP is opining 20% of their hands vs BB that is calling 76% of their hands how often do you think BB is winning and how often do you think MP is winning in a shove call situation. I say shove call because it's impossible to take players into consideration.. so pure GTO, Cards vs Cards, players taken out of the equation. I have no idea how to calculate that personally I'm sure a solver could do this but I don't have access to one. I can tell you that MP will come out ahead more often then not and I'll take that bet any day as law of large numbers says ill come out on top if I keep putting myself in the same position.

    But I think we are only concentrating on the BB here and ignoring you have 4-7 players behind you if you open in EP and that is where that 0.5BB will cost you if you get re-raised. You can disagree but this is also where the 1 BB bet on later streets comes from, why spend anything more then you need to to win the pot. It looks weak and it also looks very strong. it's a very polarizing play.

    I will argue also that this min raise gives the table no information about your hand other than GTO info which any good player will take and then adjust it for themselves. I will min open the top of my range and the bottom of my range and you get no information on my hand. Betting is about forcing information out of your opponents but it also reveals information about your hand as well. There is always the argument of do I always pretend my hand is strong or do I always pretend my hand is weak.. you have to choose one and bet that way in games. When you are short stacked your range opens up and you want to look weak, short stack crappy cards. When you are deep stacked you want to look strong and bet bigger, huge stack, better cards. It's psychological.

    The other way around if you try to look strong when short stacked on all your hands then it's going to cost you more when you are wrong which will be more often then not as the big stack will push you around and just normal odds they can have a better hand then you. It also bloats the pot for later streets that force you to play because you're pot committed, and this is at a time when you cannot afford to waste those BBs. You want to see a flop for as cheep as possible then re-evaluate or take it down as cheap as possible.

    Again just my two cents if any of that makes sense.
  • I'm not sure I'm fully getting your point (some for sure)....

    This would be an excellent discussion topic for that Sunday study group we flirted with a few months back :)

    Mark
Sign In or Register to comment.