Poker Blacklist?
Recently, there's been a few articles about high stakes pros calling out cheaters and complaining how nothing is really being done to them. Here's the most recent article I've read:
https://www.pokernews.com/news/2022/04/chance-kornuth-alex-foxen-poker-blacklist-41070.htm
There are some players that are now calling for a collective poker blacklist. What do you guys think about this?
Some issues/questions to consider:
I do think it is very strange how poker players (more specifically pro players) basically "forgive" known cheaters all the time. I'm under the impression that if any of us caught a cheater in our home game at the very least this person would be banned from all future games, and perhaps at the most they'd be walking with a limp for the rest of their lives.
Basically all other competitions (or sports or whatever) will punish and/or banned cheaters, but in poker it's almost always kept quiet and/or just ignored for some reason.
Some well known pro cheaters who are still welcome to play and still get invites to poker tournaments to this day:
https://www.pokernews.com/news/2022/04/chance-kornuth-alex-foxen-poker-blacklist-41070.htm
There are some players that are now calling for a collective poker blacklist. What do you guys think about this?
Some issues/questions to consider:
- What technically constitutes cheating that would result in a blacklist punishment?
- Who is responsible for judging someone as a cheat? Should there be an official review committee or something along those lines?
- How much evidence is required to prove cheating has taken place?
- How long should a player be blacklisted? Should there be a time limit or should it be forever?
- Should cheating online affect playing live and vice versa?
I do think it is very strange how poker players (more specifically pro players) basically "forgive" known cheaters all the time. I'm under the impression that if any of us caught a cheater in our home game at the very least this person would be banned from all future games, and perhaps at the most they'd be walking with a limp for the rest of their lives.
Basically all other competitions (or sports or whatever) will punish and/or banned cheaters, but in poker it's almost always kept quiet and/or just ignored for some reason.
Some well known pro cheaters who are still welcome to play and still get invites to poker tournaments to this day:
- Chino Reem
- Men Nguyen
- Chris Ferguson/Howard Lederer
- Dan Cates
- Brian Hastings
- Ali Imsirovic
- Jake Schindler
Comments
Even though it seems like cheating should be a pretty black in white issue, it gets grey pretty quickly. For solely for the purposes of discussion here’s my devils advocate response.
How does one define cheating? When it comes to RTA, that can be anything from a GTO solver making every decision, to a standard HUD, to preflop charts. I think I could make valid arguments that all of those things cheating, but HUDs and preflop charts are considered completely acceptable to many players.
What about collusion? Obviously soft playing and sharing hole card information is cheating, but what about swapping or selling pieces? Being able to withstand variance without tilting off all your chips is an important skill. Again, there is a valid argument that people who sell or swap pieces have an unfair advantage of those who don’t.
So the real question becomes who gets put on the list. I noticed your list includes Lederer and Ferguson (I am by no means attempting to defend anyone involved with Fulltilt), but I don’t recall them ever cheating, just stealing. So if that’s the standard, do we ban anyone every accused of theft? Should other crimes be included? Is a criminal conviction required? As far as I know no one involved with Fulltilt was ever charged. What about cheating at other casino games? Edge sorting? Card counting? What about someone who participates in unethical business practices? Or money laundering? Or countless other unsavory activities that could be likened to cheating.
Exactly. What is considered cheating is one of the big questions that would have to be specifically defined in order to have a blacklist. I don't know if everyone could agree on the parameters. That's the reason I included Federer and Ferguson. Where does the line "cheating in poker" end?
Postle could have been on here. Russ Hamilton perhaps. Annie Duke perhaps. That's another question that would be needed to be answered. How much evidence is required to "prove" cheating has occurred? Would there be a trial of some kind? Or just a group of arbitrators who we just all agree with whatever they decide?
All these cheaters have stolen millions from the global poker community. It is not safe to play online, when he or other top pros will collude or take over his horses' play whenever they get deep in an online tournament. The stable includes players from the Toronto area.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC2Q-Uk6OKdgpt3Zn6uJXX_A
https://www.pokernews.com/news/2022/04/bryn-kenney-martin-zamani-cheating-accusations-41076.htm
Yes, there's a bunch of videos just coming out now about Kenney and his "cult" of horses. Again, apparently this has been known for a while but no one has wanted to say anything.
Pretty scary that Kenney (#1 all time money winner) and Imsirovic (#1 on PokerGo yearly rankings) are both known cheaters. Definitely suggests that online cheating is extremely rampant.
I find the RTA stuff pretty interesting. You have to assume a lot these guys are are using it at the top level, which means they’re really just losing the rake.
I also don’t really know where to rank it on my patented “Scale of Cheating Severity.” If 1 is semi harmless angle shooting and 10 is being able to see everyone’s hole cards, is RTA a 7 or 8? It feels like it shouldn’t in the same category as super using, but if the end result is being unbeatable, I guess it should be.
I’m lucky that I’m a big enough fish online that no one would even need to cheat against me.
For the record, I have been working on a live RTA program for Scarney, but so far it just tells me to play every hand.
I'm aboot to turn into Doug Polks pondercast but podcasts remain so called 'heresy'. One persons words pinned up against another.
edit1: spelling
edit2: how is people getting funny over money surprizing.
I'd be surprized if people were not thieving stunts.
Doubles as an investigative reporter - lol
I'm not a huge fan of Doug but he's entertaining.
Entertaining, so this is tabloid level rumour mill type allegations?
If true baffling how there isn't legal repercussions; if only 'civil' prosecution?
If only for the 'theatre of game integrity'?
Civil courts (i.e. getting sued for example for libel) has different standards of conviction than criminal courts.
I'm by no means a legal expert. My knowledge is based on reading a few Wikipedia pages.
This situation seems to undermine ground gained for poker being a 'reputable means of earning a living'.
Tell people you play poker and they make size you up for being a dishonest salesman.
If you want to be 'respected' by society for being a liar become a lawyer?