Rebuy Tourney vs Freeze Out
At our local casino we have weekly tournaments. 3 (4 on 5 week months) are rebuy tourneys and one is a no limit Texas Hold'em freeze out.
I have been having good success at the no limit freeze out. I have also been having good success at the rebuy limit hold 'em. However, for some reason I have not been able to make a final table on the rebuy no limit.
My strategy in rebuy tournaments is to keep my rebuys to a minimum so as to maximize my winnings. I have sufficient confidence in my skill to make up ground after the first hour (when elimination play commences).
Is this flawed thinking with the no limit rebuy game? Should I be playing more hands and sucking up the expense of rebuying when I miss? Should I always rebuy to my maximum amount at the end of the first hour?
You currently have a school going on the No Limit Rebuy tournament (He is about $6K ahead of the second place person on that tournament's overall leader board with 4 tourneys to go in our year), so any pointers would be helpful!
I have been having good success at the no limit freeze out. I have also been having good success at the rebuy limit hold 'em. However, for some reason I have not been able to make a final table on the rebuy no limit.
My strategy in rebuy tournaments is to keep my rebuys to a minimum so as to maximize my winnings. I have sufficient confidence in my skill to make up ground after the first hour (when elimination play commences).
Is this flawed thinking with the no limit rebuy game? Should I be playing more hands and sucking up the expense of rebuying when I miss? Should I always rebuy to my maximum amount at the end of the first hour?
You currently have a school going on the No Limit Rebuy tournament (He is about $6K ahead of the second place person on that tournament's overall leader board with 4 tourneys to go in our year), so any pointers would be helpful!
Comments
that is a terrible strategy. your job during the tournament is to get chips. in most small tournaments (small being < $1000 entry) stacks are very short, which means there isn't much room to use your superior skill to make up ground
fwiw, it is ALWAYS correct to rebuy and people who buy in then dont rebuy when they go bust are suckers.
if it's correct to buy in for 100 dollars with a 10000 prize pool, isn't the overlay bigger when buying in for 100 dollars with a 10100 prize pool?
i generally play rebuy periods the same as i do in cash games. in fact, ive been known to buy into nl cash games with a short stack just to give myself more tournament-stack experience.
Simply maximizing the amount of chips you will have at the end of the rebuy period is pretty easy. The strategy of moving all-in every hand and rebuying at every opportunity will generally leave you with loads of chips at the end of the rebuy period.
Your job in a tournament is to maximize your monetary +EV. Money that is saved by avoiding unecessary rebuys/addons increases this +EV. Determining which rebuys/addons are "necessary", and how averse you should be to putting yourself in situations where a rebuy/addon becomes necessary are difficult problems I think.
Did you mean that it's always correct to rebuy when you reach 0 chips, and you are a better than the average player in the tournament? With those qualifiers I'd agree.
Don't forget that thinking you are a better than average player is different than being one. Some players (the worse than average skilled ones) may be almost always incorrect when taking rebuys.
This shows that it is correct to rebuy when you reach 0 chips and in cases where your initial buy-in was a monetary +EV decision.
A poor player who was initially making a -EV move by buying-in is a "sucker" if he does rebuy. Furthermore, a poor player is generally more likely than average to put himself in a situation where he requires a rebuy.*
Even for a skilled player, it is not obvious that "always rebuy" is the correct strategy when you do have chips. This is due to the fact that each chip you gain on top of an existing stack decreases in value. (See "Chips Change Value" in TPFAP.)
I think some important issues are:
1. Should you take rebuy every time the rules allow you do so? If not, under what circumstances do you rebuy?
2. How should the presence of rebuys affect your strategy during the rebuy period? Even though it is (generally) correct to rebuy when you hit 0 chips (if you are an above average skill player), the decisions you have made which put you down to 0 chips may or may not have been correct in terms of monetary +EV.
ScottyZ
*Good players who "hate rebuy tournaments" may want to give these points some thought.
1. If you have bigger stacks at your table who play loose, then I'd say 'Ya'. I want to be able to double up when I get the chance - the more chips I have the bigger the double.
2. During the rebuy period, the gap concept doesn't apply to most players. You can figure out which ones pretty quickly. You should play much closer to a cash game strategy and not be afraid to push small edges. Probably play a lot more hands where you have a chance to double up - suited connectors, small pockets, etc.
****You should not gamble foolishly just because it is the re-buy period. Any individual play is either +EV or –EV. Taking –EV gambles will result in… well… negative EV.
****You should, however, take all the re-buys you are entitled to. So, in this tournament it’s 200 starting chips. For the first 20 minutes re-buys at 200 or less, second 20 minutes at 400 or less, and third 20 minutes at 600 or less and then there is an add-on for another $25 and 400 chips. So, if you take all of the re-buys you are entitled to you will have between 1,000 and 1,200 after the re-buy period begins.
****Good example of variance. Here in Saskatoon we have a weekly tournament. First Wednesday is limit hold’em with rebuys, second Wednesday is limit Omaha-8 with re-buys, third Wednesday is no-limit hold’em with re-buys, and fourth Wednesday is no-limit freezeout. The casino holds back 5% of the prize pool each week. In August, the top ten money winners in each discipline play a freeroll.
****In the "no-limit with re-buys" event I outright won won 3 of 7 (around 100 players) this "season." Pretty damn fine record. But… In the other 21 tournaments (the other disciplines) I have not even made a single final table. So, don’t pay too much attention to short term results. Everything else being equal, I am enjoying more than my share of luck in "no-limit with re-buys"and less than my share of luck in the remainder.
This is a much better and more eloquent way of putting it. However, if you are the best player at the table, you should have enough chips to cover the table to maximize your gain should you get involved in a +EV situation. If there are better players than you at the table, you should have enough chips to just cover the largest stack you believe you are better than. By better than, I mean have +EV vs. him over a number of trials (hands).
Yes this is what I meant. Many tournaments, including those online and at the WSOP/WPT events, allow rebuys whenever one is below the starting stack. However, my rationale for rebuying at any given time is a function of the other stacks at the table - as determined above.
By that rationale, they are suckers for being inthe tournament in the first place. If their EV is negative at the start of the tournament, the overlay on the rebuy makes it such that their EV would be higher (though likely still negative) when rebuying.
Suppose over a particular tournament a given player expects to lose 25% of his buyin(which is pretty bad play). He gets 0.75 cents for each dollar he spends. Thus, for his $100 buyin (assume 100 players and no rake), his share of the $10000 prize pool is $75, or 0.075%. Now let's increase the prize pool to $10100 (basically he rebuys). His share of the prize pool is 0.75% He now expects to earn $75.75 for the second $100. Taking this to an extreme, suppose there were $1,000,000 in the prize pool. His EV would actually be $7500 on that last $100 buyin. It is clear that there is a point where rebuying is breakeven (Do you see why?
Chips change value considerations do not apply during rebuy periods. Given that there is no prize payout at the end of the rebuy period, and given all of the assumptions we have laid out already (you are good, field is bad), and given that the "When you're broke, you're done" factor does not apply, there is no reason, IMO, to play in any way other than to maximize chip EV (as opposed to $ EV). To maximize chip EV, one must have enough chips to cover any player he deems himself better than.
Of course, there are considerations to be given to preserving a big stack during the gamb00000l period and avoiding close gambles once you have already built a stack. I'll let others elaborate (wow do i read too much 2+2 or what?)
EDIT: pkrfce9 beat me to it, he writes g00t.
The newbie organizers have neglected to give details such as rake/fee, prize structure, etc. but they are wondering why there are so few people that pre-paid for a ticket.
1) In the unlikely event that I bust out during the rebuy period, will it probably be -EV to pay another $40 for just 2,000 chips? It doesn't seem to make sense to pay more than half of the original buy-in for only half of the original starting chips.
2) If I have less than 2,000 chips at the add-on deadline, will it probably be -EV to pay another $40 for just 2,000 more chips? Again, it doesn't seem to make sense to pay more than half of the original buy-in when I will still be below my original 4,000 starting chips.
3) If I believe that I am better than average in this fish pond, what will be the approximate breakeven point where it would make sense to pay $40 for the 2,000-chip add-on? Will it be around the 4,000 starting chips or does it have to be around the average number of chips?
Suppose you pay $70 for 4 chips. There are 100 chips. This means that there are 400 chips in play and you have a 1% chance of winning. Your equity is $70 (ignoring rake).
Now suppose you pay an extra $40 for 2 more chips. There are now 402 chips in play. You now have 6 of them. You chance of winning has increased to 1.49%. Your equity is $104.90. But you have paid $110. You LOSE money taking this re-buy. Avoid it, if possible.
Does it make a difference that you went broke? Now you are faced with paying $40 for 2 chips. You have 2 of 402 chips. Your chance of winning is 0.49%. Your equity is $34.96.
So... the re-buy is negative EV. THis was your instinct and it strikes me as correct.
There are other considerationg (see Sklansky re small stacks being worth more). Like for instance, "It's only $40 and I want to play" which is, I think, a perfectly valid reason. Money only, - EV. Fun +EV.