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"Raise 400"
A NL tournament where verbal actions are binding. Blinds are 50/100.
What is the standard ruling in these cases?
(a) The player UTG throws in a purple ($500) chip without saying anything. How much is the bet?
(b) The player UTG says "Raise" before doing anything with his chips. He throws in a purple chip. How much is the bet?
(c) The player UTG throws in a purple chip and says "Raise" while the chip is still in motion. How much is the bet?
(d) The player UTG throws in a purple chip and says "Raise" after the chip has come to rest, but before UTG+1 has taken any action. How much is the bet?
(e) The player UTG says "400" before doing anything with his chips. He throws in a purple chip. How much is the bet?
(f) The player UTG says "Raise 400" before doing anything with his chips. He throws in a purple chip. How much is the bet?
ScottyZ
What is the standard ruling in these cases?
(a) The player UTG throws in a purple ($500) chip without saying anything. How much is the bet?
(b) The player UTG says "Raise" before doing anything with his chips. He throws in a purple chip. How much is the bet?
(c) The player UTG throws in a purple chip and says "Raise" while the chip is still in motion. How much is the bet?
(d) The player UTG throws in a purple chip and says "Raise" after the chip has come to rest, but before UTG+1 has taken any action. How much is the bet?
(e) The player UTG says "400" before doing anything with his chips. He throws in a purple chip. How much is the bet?
(f) The player UTG says "Raise 400" before doing anything with his chips. He throws in a purple chip. How much is the bet?
ScottyZ
Comments
(a) Call
(b) Total wager is $500
(c) Call
(d) Tougher, but I think total wager = $400
(e) Total wager $500
Why are you asking?
The socratic method perhaps.
It's something I've seen often done wrong both live and on TV. It's amazing to see it happen not just on Celebrity Poker (which is to be expected), but also on the TV coverage of the higher level tournaments (WPT, etc).
Dave Scharf has recently got me thinking a lot about etiquette and behavior at the table, and I've been mulling over the horrible things new players are picking up from poker on TV, even when watching the highest level tournament poker.
Hint: My question (f), which is your (e), seems to be the most widely misunderstood.*
ScottyZ
*Of course, it could be a widely understood rule which I misunderstand myself. :cool:
i don't know
this confuses me
how is it misunderstood, is it not a raise to 500? if it's not, then that's crazy and completely counter-intuitive.
The confusion lies in the two letter word that is not said:
"Raise 400" can be interpreted as "Raise BY 400" (the correct ruling) or "Raise TO 400"
From an English Language point of view, if they mean it all as one sentence: "Raise 400." Then that means raising by 400 to a total of 500. But if they are saying two sentences: "Raise. [pause] 400." they are in effect saying "I raise." "Total of 400." Hence just saying "Raise 400" is ambiguous.
Part of the confusion may stem from the fact that when playing online, most poker interfaces have you type in what your total bet is when you are raising. That is to say when you play NL online you are always raising TO a total and not raising BY a number.
Not true. PokerStars is this way but I know I have played on sites that you enter the actual raise amount. If I'm not mistake (which I may be) Party Poker is this way.
Agreed.
As is often said on CSI, state your source.
This rule is not covered in either Robert's Rules of Poker or the TDA rules. (Nor anywhere else I could find.)
The way I learned it was that "Raise 400" means that you're raising to 400. However, I can't remember where I learned it this way. So, I basically can't state my source.
Would I ever say something like "Raise 400" in a tournament myself? No way. Best to say something definitive. My personal preference is just saying the number by itself.
ScottyZ
Interested in hearing the proper etiquette.
Interesting, I based (and always base) rulings at my tourneys on my study of both...LoL...Guess I just made the distiction myself.
To clarify I'm would rule the opposite at one my tourneys than Scotty here. By saying "Raise 400" I would make the player bet a total of $500 or all-in which ever is less.
a) 100. Tossing in a single check without saying anything is assumed to be a call.
b) 500. The amount of the raise was pushed in, in one fluid motion and you have to assume after raise was said that any chips pushed over the line is the amount of the Raise.
c) The dealer should give the player a warning for splashing the pot, and explain the proper procedure for raising. The raise stays at a total bet of 500.
d) The dealer should give the player a warning for string betting and the bet would be 100 which is customary after a string bet.
e) Casinos or home games should be clear on what the default assumption for betting is. If the house rule is that you always announce the amount of your raise, the bet would be 500. I may be mistaken, but I think this is the default casino rule?
f) As above, the bet is 500. The only verbiage I'd use to get a total bet of 400 is "Raise to 400" or "Make it 400 to go"
Good questions Scotty, I think these types of quizzes make all of us pause for a second and think about rules and applications and should make us more informed and therefore better players from any perspective.
(b) The player UTG says "Raise" before doing anything with his chips. He throws in a purple chip. How much is the bet?
I was at a tourney(non casino) recently and the dealer had two different rulings depending if it was pre flop or post flop. Pre flop you must announce the exact raise but post flop you could just say raise and throw the chip in. :eek:
I always make sure I state exactly what I am doing to avoid the headaches.
The raise would be to $1,000, whether or not the player says "raise".
Throwing in two or more chips which total at least the minumum raise, and without stating an amount, constitutes a raise to the exact amount of chips thrown in.
ScottyZ
It's unclear what you mean by this. You need to describe the exact sequence of what this person says and does with the chips.
If what you're getting at is "Is there a difference in situations where you are using exactly one chip compared to using more than one chip?", then the answer is a whole-hearted "Yes."
ScottyZ
The sequence of events is still not clear. Sorry to be a pain, but it matters.
If the player says the word "raise" well before beginning the motion of throwing out the $500 chip, then the raise is to $500.
Apart from that, you start getting into grey areas and/or house rules.
Under no rule I have ever heard of would the raise be to $200.1
ScottyZ
1Unless you are talking about limit poker.
The bet is $500.
ScottyZ
A bet of a single chip or bill without comment is considered to be the full amount of the chip or bill allowed. However, a player acting on a previous bet with a larger denomination chip or bill is calling the previous bet unless this player makes a verbal declaration to raise the pot. (This includes acting on the forced bet of the big blind.)
ScottyZ
Or am i wrong to do it this way?
If you seek vengeance, dig two graves. (cant remember who said it)
Hard to tell. It depends on the exact sequence of events; that is, what exactly you are saying and doing with chips, and when.
ScottyZ
The blinds are 10/20. Everyone fold after the big blind to me, im on the button. I say raise. Then i put 20 dollars in the middle. Then im gonna say how much i raise, so this way theres no misunderstanding on the amount. Say i only put a 100 dollar chip without saying a word. Then the bet would be a 100 since my call is already in.
Can this be seen as a string bet.
Let them hate me, as long as they fear me. (again i dont remember who it is from)
For the first example:
What word(s) exactly do you say here? Just a number?
For the second example:
The raise in this case would be to a total of 120.
A couple of minor terminology points--- it is impossible to bet here. When facing a previous bet (or raise), your options are to fold, call, or raise. Furthermore, refering to the 20 you have already put out as a "call" is sloppy, and it is a bad habit to think of it this way. If you say the word "call" out loud, that is your action. Using a phrase such as "I'm going to call your 20 and raise you 100 more", causes your action to be a call.
ScottyZ
What i sould have said was. Nobody call or raised after the blinds.(all fold) The action is now on me, i say raise. I put a 20 dollar chip in the middle at that point so the next amount that i put in is my raise. (10/20 Blinds)
So technically i say raise, i take the amount of the big blind or the amount that someone might have raise in front of me and put it in the pot. After that i put in the amount i wanna raise to.
Lets say theres a flop. the guy in front of me bets a 100. Then i would say raise you. Id put in is 100 then i would say 500 more and then put in a 500 chip. But technically i dont even need to say 500 more since i put in a 100 dollar chip before i put in my raise.
Sorry if im not 100 percent clear. The translation might be a bit to literal.
This is allowed, and if you say nothing further, you are raising to the total amount of chips you put in. In the case where you put in one additional chip (and don't say anything further), you are raising by the full amount of this chip.
Okay. The raise would be to a total 600. The fact that you said the word "more" is an extremely important detail here.
Correct. The raise would be to a total of 600 if you had said nothing in addition to your original statement of "raise you".
I would still strongly recommend that you move all of your chips at once when making a raise. This is the best way to avoid string bets, and to make it perfectly clear what the total amount that you are raising to is.
ScottyZ