It seems that the three chipleaders were so scared that they were willing to give away so much equity instead of taking advantage of ICM pressure, and going for #1 and $26,000. The shortest stack, who only had half the chips of the chipleader and an ICM equity of < $12K, gained the most by being guaranteed more at $12K!
Looking at their very close chip stacks, ie no one was really short, I can understand the deal... If there had of been one or two real short stacks then I would have played on but in this case.... meh.. Biggest stack was only 30 bigs and shortest 17..
That is a huge difference in equity. The chipleader's 4.5 million chips is worth almost $15K, while the shortest 2.6 million is worth less than $12K. If you, trigs and I offered SirWatts a six-way chop in the PCA Main Event final table, what would SirWatts say?
When two players and I made it to the final three in an OPT tourney, the micro stack - who seemed to be new to the tough OPT tourneys and had just set a new record for the most rebuys ever at OPT - wanted the two big stacks to donate more money to third place, similar to the Playground offer. The two CL felt sorry for "micro" for having run out of cash for the rebuys and kept borrowing every time he made a bad all-in call, so we offered to both give him some money and end the game. Unfortunately, like many live players (non-OPT), he had no idea about equity or ICM and replied something like, "No, I don't want to end the game, I just want you two to give me more guaranteed money then I can still win." SteveKerr, crazykoby and the rest of the OPT regs there burst out laughing. Crazykoby told him something like, "If only the WSOP was like that and I can make that crazy offer in a final table and get accepted."
That is a huge difference in equity. The chipleader's 4.5 million chips is worth almost $15K, while the shortest 2.6 million is worth less than $12K. If you, trigs and I offered SirWatts a six-way chop in the PCA Main Event final table, what would SirWatts say?
Big difference is Mike's skill and experience level over the rest of us. (15K vs 12K) is not that big a difference imo since "luck" is such a huge factor at that point. You do remember that "luck" still plays a big part in the short run don't you? I'm not questioning your perceived equity calculations but that is only "part" of the equation.
Isn't the only real issue is that all the players involved are happy with the deal?
As ReefAquarium and I discussed before, there are two main groups in the NEGATIVE-sum game of poker: Group B who mainly play for fun and don't mind to keep losing over the long run, and Group A who are willing to put in the hard work, time, effort, etc. on figuring out how to take every possible edge, especially > $3,000 edges, and be able to beat both the casino and Group B in the long run. You are correct that both groups of players can be happy, but since this is supposedly a poker forum, we have a chance to be in the group that makes money from mistakes happily made by other players.
Way too simplistic by my way of thinking, while I agree that math plays a part in these equations, I do not think it is right to simply base the decision to deal or not to deal strictly on math. Factors such as relative skill level, your own feeling at the time, bankroll effects (for those who play on a bankroll), etc play equally important roles. You will never convince me otherwise, even though I know you place me in group B and yourself in group A.
I agree that it's a negative sum game as the poker community as a whole loses but if all decisions were simply based on math wouldn't those in group A quickly have all the money left over?
Oh, and by the way Groups A and B are not mutually exclusive, one can play for fun AND make money because the long run (as you say it) is longer than either of us have to live.
I suspect we will never agree so we'll simply have to agree to disagree...
I happily put myself in Group B as, I believe, are most ot the ppl on here. Also, the fastest way to take the fun out of a game is to make a job out of it.
If I get to a situation where I am involved in a chop, then I'm already playing with house money, so I'd happily take a deal where I may give up some equity to increase my guaranteed payout. As they say, a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. Let the trolling begin on that one.
Lol, touché. Somebody once said, If you never look like an idiot, you're not doing it right. Great spot though, river paired board and brought flush, he made a good call.
Still not chopping for less than my equity, or paying the bubble if theres <5% chance that I don't cash.
Also, it was 5 high, not 10 high - i think that makes it ok.
Lol, touché. Somebody once said, If you never look like an idiot, you're not doing it right. Great spot though, river paired board and brought flush, he made a good call.
Still not chopping for less than my equity, or paying the bubble if theres <5% chance that I don't cash.
Also, it was 5 high, not 10 high - i think that makes it ok.
My issue isn't either players play, it's the fuckin 3 minute tank he took to call.
Lol you referring to me? I had chopped for more then my equity.
Ahhh I see, I'm pretty sure in both chops I did the chip leader took at least $300 or $400 less each time, which is a lot when first is only 1.1 - 1.6k.
I've never seen a casino with so many chop discussions.. I had to decline at least four 7+ way chops in the first tourney I cashed. In which I was called greedy numerous times, basically just told them I didn't drive 5 hours for 400 bucks lol.
+1. A few poker rooms have had problems with desperate players that threaten or harass those that refuse to donate their money away. Playground (PG) seems to have the most scared players, especially in their low buy-in dailies, that do not care about going for first place and are more than happy to light their money on fire just to get a guaranteed payday. In one of my first MTTs at PG, I was eliminated close to the money around 23rd, then later, I read that there was a 21-player chop!
At Rama, GBH, Brantford, Fallsview, etc., there is usually one or more players who wants the first place money for themselves, so I don't remember any 6+ bonfire chop like at PG. Bubble donations by the chipleaders are most common at Rama, but most deals I've seen (except for PG) only happen when it gets down to the final 2 or 3.
I've never seen a casino with so many chop discussions.. I had to decline at least four 7+ way chops in the first tourney I cashed. In which I was called greedy numerous times...
I think Fallsview did a 4 way deal in the 2500 one year. But that was because all players wanted to play the 5k Main Event and late registration for that was almost over.
I think Fallsview did a 4 way deal in the 2500 one year. But that was because all players wanted to play the 5k Main Event and late registration for that was almost over.
That was a very interesting day for both of us, so here's the full story. Earlier in the week, Mike "goleafsgoeh" Leah was desperately looking for the sold-out $1,100 entry so I gave him one of my satellite entries and he went on to make a heads-up deal and officially win $118,982. During the $5K ME, 888-sponsored Xuan asked RFG Tugba to take a photo of her. Fallsview strictly forbids photos in the tournament area, so when Xuan posted it on Twitter thanking her, Tugba freaked out that she would get in trouble with Fallsview!
I told Tugba about "The Incident" a couple of days before with the Fallsview TD misinterpreting me greeting Xuan at the registration desk as something else. Tugba and I decided to avoid the TD and watched the $2,500 final table together. She was new to poker so I was explaining the final table plays to her. Xuan was eliminated from the ME and she joined us. Three of the final four players were from the GTA with zero or one tournament cash. The only pro was Pratyush "Spelling Bee" Buddiga. Fallsview doesn't officially allow deals and they all had to walk away from the table! It wasn't an even 4-way chop like Playground players do. After a bunch of all-ins, Spelling Bee was the official winner with $243,714.
The four of them had to walk all the way up to the Cashier's Cage in the casino to divvy up the huge amount of cash, but I don't think all four came back to play the ME. Spelling Bee put aside his trophy in the hallway and late regged in time. My friend "borrowed" his trophy and took a photo, LOL.
We made reservations at Mama Mia's for the dinner break, which included SirWatts, Vekked, SteveKerr and a bunch of pros. After several more pros were eliminated, we went to the Noodle Bar with Christian "charder" Harder, Ben "NeverScaredB" Wilinofsky and his Russian fiancee, and me sitting beside Vanessa Selbst. The second RFG, Angelique, finally arrived from her delayed flight and was eating at the next table. We ended up at the Hilton's Spyce Lounge.
In the $5K ME, two Ontario pros and Dylan Wilkerson were in the final three, but I had gone home after a profitable but stressful WPT FPC, and don't remember from Dylan if there were any deals made.
Comments
GG DJ. Nice run man, well done.
I have to admit. I was refreshing here and on fb to get updates. And I didn't even have a piece! Was a great sweat regardless.
I'll be there Wednesday morning are you sticking around?
we're railing from afar.
I'll post about the four way all in when i get home
If it's not too late, I'll take 10% of your action...
TonyBet Winter Festival ? Final 6 make a deal
It seems that the three chipleaders were so scared that they were willing to give away so much equity instead of taking advantage of ICM pressure, and going for #1 and $26,000. The shortest stack, who only had half the chips of the chipleader and an ICM equity of < $12K, gained the most by being guaranteed more at $12K!
When two players and I made it to the final three in an OPT tourney, the micro stack - who seemed to be new to the tough OPT tourneys and had just set a new record for the most rebuys ever at OPT
I agree that it's a negative sum game as the poker community as a whole loses but if all decisions were simply based on math wouldn't those in group A quickly have all the money left over?
Oh, and by the way Groups A and B are not mutually exclusive, one can play for fun AND make money because the long run (as you say it) is longer than either of us have to live.
I suspect we will never agree so we'll simply have to agree to disagree...
If I get to a situation where I am involved in a chop, then I'm already playing with house money, so I'd happily take a deal where I may give up some equity to increase my guaranteed payout. As they say, a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. Let the trolling begin on that one.
Oh ya, and I'd kick in for the bubble too.
Not sure, but I seen you do it with ten high against a kid that tanked for 3 mins with the broadway.
P.S I was at your table, was the kid with either a TMT hat or a Draftkings toque. I think it was the toque that day.
Still not chopping for less than my equity, or paying the bubble if theres <5% chance that I don't cash.
Also, it was 5 high, not 10 high - i think that makes it ok.
My issue isn't either players play, it's the fuckin 3 minute tank he took to call.
Lol you referring to me? I had chopped for more then my equity.
No, not you, just the players at playground in general.
I've never seen a casino with so many chop discussions.. I had to decline at least four 7+ way chops in the first tourney I cashed. In which I was called greedy numerous times, basically just told them I didn't drive 5 hours for 400 bucks lol.
At Rama, GBH, Brantford, Fallsview, etc., there is usually one or more players who wants the first place money for themselves, so I don't remember any 6+ bonfire chop like at PG. Bubble donations by the chipleaders
I told Tugba about "The Incident"
The four of them had to walk all the way up to the Cashier's Cage in the casino to divvy up the huge amount of cash, but I don't think all four came back to play the ME. Spelling Bee put aside his trophy in the hallway and late regged in time. My friend "borrowed" his trophy and took a photo, LOL.
We made reservations at Mama Mia's for the dinner break, which included SirWatts, Vekked, SteveKerr and a bunch of pros. After several more pros were eliminated, we went to the Noodle Bar with Christian "charder" Harder, Ben "NeverScaredB" Wilinofsky and his Russian fiancee, and me sitting beside Vanessa Selbst. The second RFG, Angelique, finally arrived from her delayed flight and was eating at the next table. We ended up at the Hilton's Spyce Lounge.
In the $5K ME, two Ontario pros and Dylan Wilkerson were in the final three, but I had gone home after a profitable but stressful WPT FPC, and don't remember from Dylan if there were any deals made.