Hand Analysis: JJ faces a lot of action
$5.50 + Rebuys at PokerStars. Very early in the tournament. The table is quite wild, with people putting in pretty big pre-flop raises with random hands. Very loose, even facing raises & re-raises.
I don't mind taking more rebuys, but I generally don't like to be too crazy with the rebuying.
Question 1: UTG with JJ. What would be your plan of attack here?
Question 2: I limped in, intending to either move all-in facing moderate action back to me, or see a cheap flop if there was no (or minimal) action back to me. What do you think of this plan?
Question 3: The action comes back to you heavy. No significant read on any players, except that a lot of them are playing as weirdly as you'd expect during Orbit #1 of a $5+R. (There are no "jam every hand even if I have to make 26 rebuys" players.) Now what?
PokerStars Game #1415451323: Tournament #6256014, Hold'em No Limit - Level I (10/20) - 2005/03/25 - 18:34:44 (ET)
Table '6256014 10' Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: fedck (3620 in chips)
Seat 2: BigJay01 (1470 in chips)
Seat 3: cukemunster6 (1470 in chips)
Seat 4: KAA0925 (1840 in chips)
Seat 5: governorbets (1390 in chips)
Seat 6: NY1344 (2060 in chips)
Seat 7: ScottyZ (1500 in chips)
Seat 8: NIPPER05 (3150 in chips)
Seat 9: McG369 (1500 in chips)
governorbets: posts small blind 10
NY1344: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to ScottyZ [Jc Js]
ScottyZ: calls 20
NIPPER05: raises 20 to 40
McG369: calls 40
fedck: calls 40
BigJay01: calls 40
cukemunster6: calls 40
KAA0925: raises 60 to 100
governorbets: calls 90
NY1344: raises 1400 to 1500
ScottyZ: ???
ScottyZ
I don't mind taking more rebuys, but I generally don't like to be too crazy with the rebuying.
Question 1: UTG with JJ. What would be your plan of attack here?
Question 2: I limped in, intending to either move all-in facing moderate action back to me, or see a cheap flop if there was no (or minimal) action back to me. What do you think of this plan?
Question 3: The action comes back to you heavy. No significant read on any players, except that a lot of them are playing as weirdly as you'd expect during Orbit #1 of a $5+R. (There are no "jam every hand even if I have to make 26 rebuys" players.) Now what?
PokerStars Game #1415451323: Tournament #6256014, Hold'em No Limit - Level I (10/20) - 2005/03/25 - 18:34:44 (ET)
Table '6256014 10' Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: fedck (3620 in chips)
Seat 2: BigJay01 (1470 in chips)
Seat 3: cukemunster6 (1470 in chips)
Seat 4: KAA0925 (1840 in chips)
Seat 5: governorbets (1390 in chips)
Seat 6: NY1344 (2060 in chips)
Seat 7: ScottyZ (1500 in chips)
Seat 8: NIPPER05 (3150 in chips)
Seat 9: McG369 (1500 in chips)
governorbets: posts small blind 10
NY1344: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to ScottyZ [Jc Js]
ScottyZ: calls 20
NIPPER05: raises 20 to 40
McG369: calls 40
fedck: calls 40
BigJay01: calls 40
cukemunster6: calls 40
KAA0925: raises 60 to 100
governorbets: calls 90
NY1344: raises 1400 to 1500
ScottyZ: ???
ScottyZ
Comments
at worst u are only a 4 1/2 to 1 dog on possible 3 or 4 way action.
all in
still in this spot i think i call, and re-buy if needed.
Yep, I like your plan of attack in this early round, but my intent is to get all my chips in. Once I get to 100/200 then I pull back on the gamble.
If you lose, think of them as if they are in escrow. You'll get them back.
Cheers
Magi
I personally don't automatically rebuy to 3,000 at the beginning of the tournament.
I sometimes will take a rebuy early on depending on the nature of the table I'm at.
ScottyZ
I'm trying to figure out why you wouldn't take the rebuy, and can't come up with something. I pretty much agree with all your advice, so I'm wondering here. Any insights you can add?
Cheers
Magi
I think I can gain an advantage in the Stars rebuy tournaments by paying a smaller buy-in on average than most players.
The blind structure specifically in Stars tournaments matters. Many players are used to taking automatic rebuys (and are usually correct to do so) in many B&M rebuy tournaments simply becasue the blind structure makes this necessary. That is, a B&M rebuy tournament is normally designed to simply pump up the prize pool by making a certain number of rebuys/addons necessary to avoid getting blinded off. A Stars rebuy turbo tourney is a great example of one where I'd automatically rebuy at every opportunity (and play much more wildly than usual).
As for the standard blind schedule Stars rebuys, the blind structure is not oppressive enough to force rebuys in this way. I have found that I can leave the rebuy period with a reasonable stack relative to the blinds without necessarily taking max rebuys.
The "power of having the big stack" is severely diminished in low-limit rebuy tournaments, since your largest weapon (bluffing) as a huge stack is almost completely useless against the majority of your opponents in these kinds of tournaments. From this point of view, I don't see much incentive to building a monster stack when your opponents generally cannot be pushed around by any sized stack.
Finally, the "Chips Change Value" chapter of TPFAP states that additional chips gained in a tournament marginally decrease in value. This suggests that there might be something with more EV you can do with the money you used for the rebuy, such as enter another identical rebuy tournament.
However, as I already mentioned, it is not an automatic decision either way for me. For example, I'll rebuy to 3,000 at every opportunity if facing at least one "wacko" player at my table, or an entire table of opponents who are all generally too aggressive and/or excessive calling stations (and have at least ~3,000 chips themselves). It's simply good value to maximize your double up against a "push every hand" specialist for example.
So, of course, the final answer is "it depends". :cool:
ScottyZ
Interesting take on the whole immediate rebuy issue. I for one tend to rebuy immediately in the Stars tournaments, but you've given me pause for thought.
As for the hand in question. First of all, I wouldn't limp with JJ UTG here. I can see your reasoning for playing this way, and I don't hate the reasoning or the play, but that doesn't change the fact that JJ still wants to narrow the field. I know it's tough to narrow a field in the early stages of a $5+R tournament, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't try.
So, I'd raise it up to 80 or 100 or so. If nobody re-raises (ie: I'm just called in a couple of spots) I'm looking for a friendly flop. If I get re-raised, I would probably call any and all bets.
But, that's becuase it's a $5 tournament. I'm having a hard time getting past the 'it's only five bucks' thought process here. Let's say it was the 1K rebuy event at the WSOP. 1K is a lot of money to me, especially to spend on a rebuy. In that tournament, I'd play it the same initially (raise it up) but I'd probably fold to an all-in re-raise. The only hands that would re-raise me THAT much in the 1K event (I would think) would be AK, QQ or TT. Anything weaker would call, anything stronger wouldn't raise so much. Typically. So, I'd fold my jacks.
But for five bucks? Call.
Interesting.. we have winning low limit holdem and a bazillion books to tell us how to beat the game.. But why do we assume that we'd play the same game in low buyin no limit as we would in high buyin no limit?
I think the nature of your table really comes into play. I for one consider the following. I can often play the early stages of one of those tournies more closely like a freezout, but obviously taking a FEW extra liberties because of the re-buys. I think in those tournies the average pool by the end of the add-on is the equivalent of 3 buy-ins from the initial player pool and more likely 4X the buy-in of the players still in.
Since i don't have to fear a lack of tournaments online, i will sometimes try to get myself in essence an overlay, by being into the 2nd hour of the tournament for much less than others.
Scotty also touched on another key point, the speed of blinds, playing on Pokerstars and a bit now on UB, which both have great blind structures, you really can play good poker and get yourself a cost overlay by being into tournaments for less than the rest.
Here are the results (posted in white in case you don't want to look yet):
ScottyZ: folds
NIPPER05: folds
McG369: folds
fedck: folds
BigJay01: folds
cukemunster6: folds
KAA0925: calls 1400
governorbets: folds
*** FLOP *** [4s 5h 9h]
NY1344: bets 560 and is all-in
KAA0925: calls 340 and is all-in
*** TURN *** [4s 5h 9h] [8h]
*** RIVER *** [4s 5h 9h 8h] [9c]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
NY1344: shows [Qh Qs] (two pair, Queens and Nines)
KAA0925: shows [Ts Td] (two pair, Tens and Nines)
NY1344 collected 4000 from pot
KAA0925 re-buys and receives 1500 chips for $5.00
Mathematically, look at the range of hands that will call you in those things (many times any pp 22 to AA, and suited ace, kjo, etc) and its a huge +EV move to get all in preflop if you can get callers, and most times you will.
For me rebuying initially is automatic, you double up against a wild player ealy and you have 6k, again 12k vs having only 6k infront of you. PLaying these your goal is to make the big money in the top 5 to 10 and being able to see more flops witha large stack after the addon is a big advantage. Basically, not starting with 3k and having a fortunate run to start is effectively chopping your stack in 1/2.
You're playing a rebuy with the understanding that you should push small edges early (especially with a field of 400 or more) because making the top 5 is a huge overlay on your money whether you spend $15 or $40.
I don't use the crazy push at all costs and pray strategy, but I understand that al in standards are MUCH lower than normal in the early stages of these games.
Now, this may differ alot in B+M when the fields are less than 80, but when you can get an edge that sees you potentially winning 1k-3k vs 990- 2290 I'd have to go with always taking a few chances and certainly staring with 3k in chips.