All Aces, need a Judgement
I have been playing the SNGs from $10+1 - $50+5 at Party Poker for sometime now. I have been a winning player at them just by being extremely tight at the get go and stealing pot when the blinds get so high you start to get a nose bleed, lol, just jokes.
However I am starting to really get annoyed at all the bad beats at party poker because of all the bad players. I mean today it seemed like it happened to me every game. So here is my question too you...
I see that you do play some Turbo SNGs on PokerStars. The format is similar to the blind structure of Party, with the exception at PokerStars you actually start with 1500 chips instead of 800 at Party. I have been watching the Turbo's there and it seems like the quality of play is much better there compared to Party... seems like there are ALOT less bad players and some fairly decent ones that know when to lay down a 2 out straight draw etc. Think I should make the switch? I am thinking so, hollar at me with your opinion and anyone else for that matter that plays the turbo SNGs on Pokerstars as well.
Dennis187
However I am starting to really get annoyed at all the bad beats at party poker because of all the bad players. I mean today it seemed like it happened to me every game. So here is my question too you...
I see that you do play some Turbo SNGs on PokerStars. The format is similar to the blind structure of Party, with the exception at PokerStars you actually start with 1500 chips instead of 800 at Party. I have been watching the Turbo's there and it seems like the quality of play is much better there compared to Party... seems like there are ALOT less bad players and some fairly decent ones that know when to lay down a 2 out straight draw etc. Think I should make the switch? I am thinking so, hollar at me with your opinion and anyone else for that matter that plays the turbo SNGs on Pokerstars as well.
Dennis187
Comments
If I may be so bold, I'd suggest that this may be a more important part of your overall poker game to work on than your choice of venue.
I believe that the vast majority of your profits in poker come from your opponents' mistakes. Actively trying to avoid playing against bad players is one of the largest overall errors you can make in poker.
On the other hand, maybe players in high limit SNGs at Stars are generally poor. I have no idea.
ScottyZ
If you cant beat them in the long run (Read higher variance though) you cant beat a tougher game (Stars)
The payout structure of a SNG is actually quite deep, 3 out of 9 or on some sites 3 ouf of 10. With a 30% or 33% payout structure surviving to the money is a much larger consideration than in any other situation.
Saying that in most SNG all i'm waiting and trying to do is get my money into the pot with a huge advantage, and let the cards do the rest on one or two occasions in the tourney. You'll get sucked out it'll happen everywhere
the difference is that at least on Stars with 1500 you won't feel pot committed on every hand (the way you often do on party with 800 and blinds quickly getting to 50/100, lets see i raise he min reraises, not many options left)
When it comes to players at semi-high-limit SNG's at Stars, you should keep track of who the good ones are. You'll see them all the time. Off the top of my head, I think of Marene, Hassan, epokeman, Earlbry, and a few others who are driving me crazy right now because I can't remember their names off the top of my head. Arg.
Anyways, their names aren't important. If you're going to play $50 SNG's, you won't see these players anyways. The point is that you WILL consistently see the same players making it into the money and winning SNG's, and you should take note of who they are, and avoid them if you can. If they try to steal your blinds constantly, you won't be able to avoid them, and you'll have to establish yourself as a player who won't be pushed around. It might cost you a SNG or two by defending your blinds TOO aggressively, but it will be worth it for you in the long run if the long run is what you're aiming for.
And of course, once you're heads-up with these players, you won't be able to avoid them then, either...
As for bad beats/bad players, I think Scotty summed it up nicely. These are the people who are giving you their money. It may not feel like it 20% of the time that they beat you on an 80/20 shot, but for the most part, it will. IMO, there are two types of fish. (OK, there's more, but there are two REALLY POPULAR types of fish). The first is the kind that waaaaaaaaaaay overvalues his hand, and is willing to move all in with his pocket tens against your AQ on a QJ7 flop. When the turn and river come 8 and 9, you'll be banging your head against your monitor. But, you want these players around, even though they can be frustrating.
The second type of fish is my favourite... the kind that you can push around. Generally speaking, if they fire a bet on the flop and you raise, they'll call. So, the way to play against them is to just call a bet on the flop and confuse them. Or, check-raise them a significant amount. Show them a good hand or two, and then attack their blinds. And do all of this only after you've established yourself as a tight player while the blinds are still more or less meaningless.
Party/Stars and Turbo/non-turbo. I haven't played much at Party so I can't make a good comparison. However, I can say about Stars that I had no trouble consistently beating $100 SNG's, and am now having no trouble beating the $200 ones. Not all the time, of course, but more often than not.
And as for turbo/non-turbo, the only reason I play turbo SNG's is because they get started far more often than non-turbo ones. If you're not 100% clear about the difference, here it is.
Both start you with 1500 chips
Both blind structures are as follows:
10/20
15/30
25/50
50/100
75/150
100/200
100/200 a25
200/400 a25
300/600 a50
400/800 a50
That's off the top of my head, so don't quote me, but it's close.
Both start with 9 players, not ten.
Turbo blind levels are 5 minutes each. When people are slow, this can be all of 3 hands.
Non-turbo blind levels are 15 minutes each, putting more emphasis on skill, and less emphasis on gambling.
It goes without saying that you have to employ different strategies for these two very different types of SNG's. With practice though, you'll be able to make the adjustments easily.
I guess the bottom line is: you'll find bad players wherever you go. The key lies in being able to identify them, and to adjust your play accordingly, on a case-by-case basis. I know that's a very vague answer, but it's a very vague subject. I'm not criticising your question at all, just stating a fact... a surprising number of players at Stars are willing to spend $200 on a single SNG and then blow their chips in the most surprising and unusual ways.
A surprising number of players at Stars are also very very good. They may not frustrate you by calling your big all-in bet with a flush draw, but they will find other ways to frustrate you. Namely, by outplaying you with their great reads, and their extremely well-timed aggression.
Just went on star to make sure.. the non-turbo are 10 minutes per level
it's the regular and private tourney that are 15 minutes per level
Gide
My big problem with party is there SNG structure, which I find encourages the looser play style because they do start you with only 800 chips, although they only increase the blinds every ten hands, which in the later stages (5 players or so) means you can take your time since you know that you will be playing that limit for at least 2 blinds if not more.
The average level of skill on Stars to me seems to me to be a bit higher than on Party. Also as Aces says you will see the same people constantly winning on stars because frankly the Fish go broke fairly quickly if they only play the SNG's.
That said you get bad beats, everywhere. Hell if you are a semi skilled player that is what most of your beats become
If you are a winning player on Party SNG stay there and play. If you want to try a different SNG structure by all mean come over and play, always nice to see a familiar face at the table from time to time.
Thanks for your help. Just to let you know I have been a winning player at Party SNGs. There is a strategy to it believe it or not.... extremly tight for first 4-5 rounds then steal blinds and keep yourself alive into the money when everyone tightens up on the bubble.
Yesterday I was just fumming having suffered more bad beats than I usually do. Gut shot straight draw outs on the river with my three of a kind being beat, etc etc. I am going to stay at Party because even tho I suffered a bunch of bad beats yesterday, it was just variance and it didnt even come close to making me even anywhere near a break even player. I have been killing those games for about 5 months now and am not going to stop.
But yeah, as for my post yesterday, I was just steaming... tilting I guess lol....
Well that is it...
Thanks for the support everyone tho...
I have played plenty at all levels at both sites.
The fact that party averages very close to 16 mins for each of rounds 1 and 2, then by level 6 and 7 the levels last 3 mins makes them unlike any other. This structure favours both the poorer players as well as the ones who like to gamble.
If your sitngo game is good and you can play shorthanded stars relies on skill much more than party.
The winning players come to the forefront on a much more regular basis at stars and ultimatebet, where they use timed rounds, based on my experiences.
Kev