WWYD: Casino Rulings
While I cashed again at Casino Rama, there have been a couple of very controversial rulings in casinos this week. With only ~24 players left out of the usual sold-out tournament, Seat #9 went all-in on the river, with a board something like the following:
:jh :8s :3d :5h :6c
Seat #10, whom I had played with in last month's WPT CSC ME, tanked for a long time.
Mistake #1: #9 called the clock, instead of letting the other antsy players do it first. The floor gave the 1-minute warning.
Mistake #2: #9 exposed a card - :ah
A) What would you do, both as dealer/supervisor and player #10?
Without knowing the previous action, who do you think has the winning hand?
He Said, They Said!
When the minute is over for #10 to act, the supervisor says to #10, "That hand is mucked." #10 says, "Call." #9 says that #10's hand is dead. #10 claims that he called in time. Dealer and supervisor agree. The other players who were watching agree with #9.
#9 does not accept the call ruling, refuses to give up his hand, and asks for the rulebook and higher managers; the other players in the table chicken out and don't want to get more involved, except for seat #8 who continues to back up #9. I'm told that there is no point in going to the video footage as there is no voice recording. After a long delay, the #1 boss in the casino arrives - the Casino Shift Manager along with a bunch of other supervisors - then the paused players finally get told to go on an extended break. By the way, this casino does NOT use TDA Rules.
C) What would be YOUR ruling?
:jh :8s :3d :5h :6c
Seat #10, whom I had played with in last month's WPT CSC ME, tanked for a long time.
Mistake #1: #9 called the clock, instead of letting the other antsy players do it first. The floor gave the 1-minute warning.
Mistake #2: #9 exposed a card - :ah
A) What would you do, both as dealer/supervisor and player #10?
Without knowing the previous action, who do you think has the winning hand?He Said, They Said!
When the minute is over for #10 to act, the supervisor says to #10, "That hand is mucked." #10 says, "Call." #9 says that #10's hand is dead. #10 claims that he called in time. Dealer and supervisor agree. The other players who were watching agree with #9.
#9 does not accept the call ruling, refuses to give up his hand, and asks for the rulebook and higher managers; the other players in the table chicken out and don't want to get more involved, except for seat #8 who continues to back up #9. I'm told that there is no point in going to the video footage as there is no voice recording. After a long delay, the #1 boss in the casino arrives - the Casino Shift Manager along with a bunch of other supervisors - then the paused players finally get told to go on an extended break. By the way, this casino does NOT use TDA Rules.
C) What would be YOUR ruling?
Comments
2) after the Ah is exposed, ill still be counting down the 60seconds for #10 to decide weather to call or fold, with the information he gets about the exposed Ah.
3) I don't about the guy who exposed his Ah, is he angling or just a honest mistake, He could have AhAx and just trying to get the guy to call by showing with intentions to show a busted flush draw, or maybe just a honest mistake.
4) after the countdown is done without an action from #10, his hand is mucked and ship the pot to seat #9 as well as give him a penalty for exposing his hand. If seat #10 did call on time then both show the hand winner gets pot and seat #9 gets a penalty for exposing his hand.
If the super declared the hand dead before #10 said "call" it is dead. End of story.
A) As the Supervisor that did the countdown for the 1-min clock, once I finish the countdown the hand is dead and that's final. I don't understand how you can agree that the hand was called in time, when the supervisor went with the clock. As player 10 you have no argument.
C) If I watched the tournament clock run out, I stick to the ruling that the hand in seat 10 is dead. I will probably give a warning not only to the player but to the whole tournament that you will be penalized if you intentionally expose your hand/card in play, cause most Ontario casinos frown upon that. Although I do believe you should be allowed to show 1 card in heads up situations, but definitely not both hole cards.
- Seat 9's hand is still live with the exposed card. Once hand is over Seat 9 receives a one round penalty for exposing card(s) when there is still action.
WSOP 2010 Main Event - Controversial Hand - Friedman vs Bort - YouTube "As you might expect, quite a crowd has gathered around the table to see how this drama will play out."
what a douche
While both WPT Fallsview and this casino do not know the correct TDA rule,
60: Exposing Cards and Proper Folding
A player who exposes his cards with action pending may incur a penalty, but will not have a dead hand. The penalty will begin at the end of the hand.
While talking to try to get a read during a hand is fine, exposing any card impacts other players' equities in the tournament, especially in this case when we were close to the bubble. I would have just given #9 a warning since I haven't noticed him expose cards before. Unfortunately, this casino fails to follow TDA Rules in its many tournaments.
The chances of this blunder occurring could have been minimized had TDA Rules been in effect in this casino:
There was no 10-second countdown before the supervisor suddenly said, "That hand is mucked." He & the dealer mistakenly thought that #10 said "call" in time while all the other players including myself (not sitting in that table) heard "mucked" before "call." I later talked to #10 & he admitted that he only said the word "call" once, which I distinctly heard AFTER "mucked." He also admitted that had #9 not made the blunder of showing the Ace of hearts, he would have folded.
Morale of the story: If you want to be a winning player, know the TDA and other rules applicable in the casino. I've seen too many clueless players victimized by not knowing the rules and sometimes by staff who make wrong rulings.
I was not involved in the hand but a similar scenario played out at my table this week @ Brantford during a tournament. Heads-up pot, Player A moves all in on the river, Player B tanks. Player B, then asks the dealer if he can expose his cards as there is nobody left to act, the dealer said yes, Player B intentionally turned over his cards and continued to tank.
Thinking like popkorn I kept my mouth shut during the hand and since nobody else said anything even after the hand was over, I started thinking maybe my understanding of rule #60 is wrong. It really confused me when the dealer gave player B the OK before exposing his cards. Is there not still pending action on player B? I understood Player B should have received at least a warning or a penalty for exposing his cards, although his hand would not be dead. Is this wrong?
If enough people request Ontario casinos to use the proper TDA Rules for the hundreds of tournaments here, then in the future, Player B will not be allowed to expose his cards and screw up everybody else's tournament equities.