Is this always a shove?

mags

With such big money up top do you ever fold this?

PokerStars Hand #109669516523: Tournament #840212443, $40+$4 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XXXVI (17500/35000) - 2014/01/05 21:44:51 ET
Table '840212443 133' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 2: lemontree90 (420203 in chips)
Seat 3: m1ronO (566121 in chips)
Seat 5: PP-Nikolai (1155314 in chips)
Seat 6: Ima Notellin (328690 in chips)
Seat 7: kingmiguel3 (537075 in chips)
Seat 8: LilBigKahuna (256724 in chips)
Seat 9: Flexkilla (295385 in chips)
lemontree90: posts the ante 4375
m1ronO: posts the ante 4375
PP-Nikolai: posts the ante 4375
Ima Notellin: posts the ante 4375
kingmiguel3: posts the ante 4375
LilBigKahuna: posts the ante 4375
Flexkilla: posts the ante 4375
Ima Notellin: posts small blind 17500
kingmiguel3: posts big blind 35000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Ima Notellin [6d 6s]
LilBigKahuna: folds
Flexkilla: folds
lemontree90: folds
m1ronO: raises 35000 to 70000
PP-Nikolai: folds
Ima Notellin: raises 254315 to 324315 and is all-in
kingmiguel3: folds
m1ronO: calls 254315
*** FLOP *** [5d 8s 2h]
*** TURN *** [5d 8s 2h] [Ks]
*** RIVER *** [5d 8s 2h Ks] [Kc]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Ima Notellin: shows [6d 6s] (two pair, Kings and Sixes)
m1ronO: shows [As 8h] (two pair, Kings and Eights)
m1ronO collected 714255 from pot
Ima Notellin finished the tournament in 14th place and received $544.88.
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 714255 | Rake 0
Board [5d 8s 2h Ks Kc]
Seat 2: lemontree90 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: m1ronO showed [As 8h] and won (714255) with two pair, Kings and Eights
Seat 5: PP-Nikolai (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: Ima Notellin (small blind) showed [6d 6s] and lost with two pair, Kings and Sixes
Seat 7: kingmiguel3 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 8: LilBigKahuna folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: Flexkilla folded before Flop (didn't bet)

trigs

we're 7 handed and we have less than 10 BBs. do we have any reads on villain? has he been showing a lot of aggression? i'm assuming we have zero reads but this would be a big help in this specific situation

personally, i don't like doing this play when facing a raise, but imho it's very very close (like i'd possibly do it with 88+ or maybe 99+). i'd rather open push with a weaker hand than 66 than reraise with it.

at best case you are flipping for your tournament life, and there's still high pairs that have you crushed. fold and wait for a better spot to open the action with your push.

EDIT: that being said, if i was villain with A8, i don't think i would have called your push (but i'm probably a nit in general).

sn1perb0y

Me personally, I'm jamming vs button open, or jam open vs bb.. I'd fold vs anything else.. Yes it is mathematically terrible to do so specially with 10bbs, but its a turbo and people go out so fast and even if you bleed to 250k and then get a premium hand and jam it and get to around 600k and maybe run good at final table and get top 3.. If you see i've had a 13th and a 12th last week in "the hot" tournys and i've jammed with AK around 14bbs and i think i could of waited for a better spot than gamble with 50/50 or 30/70 where big money is super close.. Its mathematically terrible and regs would say that i am giving up a lot of equity.. But i like that strategy when we are around 18 people left.. I would jam 10 bbs if lets say there were 20-45+ people

I forgot to add also, average stack in these hot tournys is 15-18bbs so one double up or good steal spots can get you back at average

mags

EDIT: that being said, if i was villain with A8, i don't think i would have called your push (but i'm probably a nit in general)./QUOTE]

This is what I was hoping for. I had recently shown great hands no monkey business. I felt that my table image was total nit.

My read was that he had mid range stealing hand and that he would fold.

kwsteve

Congrats on the good result in the tourney. How many players started?

mags

Thanks! 2671 players.

Wetts1012

Theres a lot of words in some of the replies and I didnt really read them all.

If the jist isnt shove and feel great about it, then theyre wrong.

Wetts1012

trigs wrote: »

at best case you are flipping for your tournament life, and there's still high pairs that have you crushed. fold and wait for a better spot to open the action with your push.

We need to relook at "flipping for our tournament life" when just winning the blinds and antes represents 25% of our stack.

Even assuming that villain calls 100% of the time (which, surprisingly they don't), we have to get it in and not even think about it.

ICM really doesnt start coming into play until midway through the final table when a decision that may be +CEV may not be +$EV because of the pay jumps.

Wetts1012

sn1perb0y wrote: »

Me personally, I'm jamming vs button open, or jam open vs bb.. I'd fold vs anything else.. Yes it is mathematically terrible to do so specially with 10bbs, but its a turbo and people go out so fast and even if you bleed to 250k and then get a premium hand and jam it and get to around 600k and maybe run good at final table and get top 3.. If you see i've had a 13th and a 12th last week in "the hot" tournys and i've jammed with AK around 14bbs and i think i could of waited for a better spot than gamble with 50/50 or 30/70 where big money is super close.. Its mathematically terrible and regs would say that i am giving up a lot of equity.. But i like that strategy when we are around 18 people left.. I would jam 10 bbs if lets say there were 20-45+ people

I forgot to add also, average stack in these hot tournys is 15-18bbs so one double up or good steal spots can get you back at average

This post can be summed up as "I just want to move up on the pay scale". I think you'll find with this strategy fancy looking stats like ITM% and late field Finish% on OPR will improve, but all we really care about is ROI.

If you want to win, you exploit your edges. Not doing so is a huge leak.

Wetts1012

sn1perb0y wrote: »

I forgot to add also, average stack in these hot tournys is 15-18bbs so one double up or good steal spots can get you back at average

The thing about averages is, theyre averages.

The guys who win are the guys that have 40bb when the "average" is 15.

I want to be that guy.

actyper

22+, KJ+ jam with no read

Bfillmaff

Considering a fold?... What are you, a vegan?

Wetts1012

Some pretty smart/successful dudes gave me advice on a hand VERY similar to this in 2007 when I was more of a results oriented thinker as well.

http://www.pokerforum.ca/f8/shortstack-jammer-14170/

mags

Lol I felt it was the right move. My non poker playing husband thought I should have folded. Thanks for everyones input here as he has stopped with the "you choked". He was really hoping for the 16k up top.

djgolfcan

Clearly, you did not choke. And remind your husband that only one person can win 1st place, and if you aren't playing for first, you have already lost.

Oh, and let him know that the $16k would have gone toward your ever increasing bankroll.

GTA Poker

mags wrote: »

Lol I felt it was the right move. My non poker playing husband thought I should have folded. Thanks for everyones input here as he has stopped with the "you choked". He was really hoping for the 16k up top.

you are a she? I thought you was a black guy ffs

Bfillmaff

#109669516523: Tournament #840212443, $40+$4 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XXXVI (17500/35000) - 2014/01/05 21:44:51 ET
Table '840212443 133' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 2: lemontree90 (420203 in chips)
Seat 3: m1ronO (566121 in chips)
Seat 5: PP-Nikolai (1155314 in chips)
Seat 6: Ima Notellin (328690 in chips)
Seat 7: kingmiguel3 (537075 in chips)
Seat 8: LilBigKahuna (256724 in chips)
Seat 9: Flexkilla (295385 in chips)
lemontree90: posts the ante 4375
m1ronO: posts the ante 4375
PP-Nikolai: posts the ante 4375
Ima Notellin: posts the ante 4375
kingmiguel3: posts the ante 4375
LilBigKahuna: posts the ante 4375
Flexkilla: posts the ante 4375
Ima Notellin: posts small blind 17500
kingmiguel3: posts big blind 35000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Ima Notellin [:6d :6s]
LilBigKahuna: folds
Flexkilla: folds
lemontree90: folds
m1ronO: raises 35000 to 70000
PP-Nikolai: folds
Ima Notellin: raises 254315 to 324315 and is all-in
kingmiguel3: folds
m1ronO: calls 254315
*** FLOP *** [:5d :8s :2h]
*** TURN *** [:5d :8s :2h] [:ks]
*** RIVER *** [:5d :8s :2h :ks] [:kc]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Ima Notellin: shows [:6d :6s] (two pair, Kings and Sixes)
m1ronO: shows [:as :8h] (two pair, Kings and Eights)
m1ronO WON 714255 from pot
Ima Notellin finished the tournament in 14th place and received $544.88.
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 714255 | Rake 0
Board [:5d :8s :2h :ks :kc]
Seat 2: lemontree90 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: m1ronO showed [:as :8h] and WON (714255) with two pair, Kings and Eights
Seat 5: PP-Nikolai (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: Ima Notellin (small blind) showed [:6d :6s] and LOST with two pair, Kings and Sixes
Seat 7: kingmiguel3 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 8: LilBigKahuna folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: Flexkilla folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Bfillmaff

^ oops sorry misclick there was just testing!

MsBlue

Accidentally showing off. Mmm hmm.