How much value did I miss here?
PokerStars Hand #103462699041: Tournament #778171946, $8.00+$0.80 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level III (20/40) - 2013/08/31 5:05:07 ET
Table '778171946 29' 6-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: Tulivuori (1483 in chips)
Seat 2: 0930366488 (4897 in chips)
Seat 3: mihai_nbl (2942 in chips)
Seat 4: negator3 (2940 in chips)
Seat 5: pkratitsbest (3728 in chips)
Seat 6: lapin noita (2940 in chips)
Tulivuori: posts small blind 20
0930366488: posts big blind 40
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to negator3 [Kh Kd]
mihai_nbl: folds
negator3: raises 59 to 99
pkratitsbest: calls 99
lapin noita: folds
Tulivuori: folds
0930366488: folds
*** FLOP *** [4d 7s Qc]
negator3: bets 105
pkratitsbest: raises 215 to 320
negator3: raises 300 to 620
pkratitsbest: calls 300
*** TURN *** [4d 7s Qc] [8d]
negator3: checks
pkratitsbest: checks
*** RIVER *** [4d 7s Qc 8d] [8c]
negator3: bets 520
pkratitsbest: calls 520
*** SHOW DOWN ***
negator3: shows [Kh Kd] (two pair, Kings and Eights)
pkratitsbest: mucks hand
negator3 collected 2538 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 2538 | Rake 0
Board [4d 7s Qc 8d 8c]
Seat 1: Tulivuori (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 2: 0930366488 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 3: mihai_nbl folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: negator3 showed [Kh Kd] and won (2538) with two pair, Kings and Eights
Seat 5: pkratitsbest mucked [Qd Ad]
Seat 6: lapin noita (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Table '778171946 29' 6-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: Tulivuori (1483 in chips)
Seat 2: 0930366488 (4897 in chips)
Seat 3: mihai_nbl (2942 in chips)
Seat 4: negator3 (2940 in chips)
Seat 5: pkratitsbest (3728 in chips)
Seat 6: lapin noita (2940 in chips)
Tulivuori: posts small blind 20
0930366488: posts big blind 40
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to negator3 [Kh Kd]
mihai_nbl: folds
negator3: raises 59 to 99
pkratitsbest: calls 99
lapin noita: folds
Tulivuori: folds
0930366488: folds
*** FLOP *** [4d 7s Qc]
negator3: bets 105
pkratitsbest: raises 215 to 320
negator3: raises 300 to 620
pkratitsbest: calls 300
*** TURN *** [4d 7s Qc] [8d]
negator3: checks
pkratitsbest: checks
*** RIVER *** [4d 7s Qc 8d] [8c]
negator3: bets 520
pkratitsbest: calls 520
*** SHOW DOWN ***
negator3: shows [Kh Kd] (two pair, Kings and Eights)
pkratitsbest: mucks hand
negator3 collected 2538 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 2538 | Rake 0
Board [4d 7s Qc 8d 8c]
Seat 1: Tulivuori (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 2: 0930366488 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 3: mihai_nbl folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: negator3 showed [Kh Kd] and won (2538) with two pair, Kings and Eights
Seat 5: pkratitsbest mucked [Qd Ad]
Seat 6: lapin noita (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Comments
I mean, if the hand is faceup obv you stack the guy. But hes prob not stacking KQ or QJ there, and you protect against sets/56.
wp.
2018 in the pot after river bet. Villian shoves. 3719 in pot and 1701 to call. Do you ever fold river?
Protect against sets and straights? MUTB. This is 6 max.
The question was could he have got more value.
I argue that against villain range, the answer is no.
Against villain specific hand the obvious answer is yes.
My comments on hand protection is in regards to checking turn, which I think is better than betting turn.
Its certainly not a snap call if villain shoves river. AQ is the lightest he shoves here. He probably value calls KQ and QJ, and not many bluffs in the range based on flop texture.
From his flat of the 3bet, villain is not folding ever, so divide chip stack into thirds, value bet turn and push river with an unfoldable amount of chips for maximum value. If you were actually going to fold to a villain shove you could do so on turn by making the same river bet on turn instead or check/fold to a villain turn flat, and villain river bet. But I would find that pretty laughable and uberweak in six max given the stack sizes.
Well, lets do some math then.
Give me the range of hands you feel shove river, given the flop and turn play.
I'll give you my range and we can compare notes.
Great discussion. Thanks. Youve convinced me.
I'll talk to myself.
Most of the time we Vbet river and find a fold or a call. 99-JJ, QJ+ I assume simply flat our river bet and we win. Yay.
What hands shove river here? We can debate QJ+, but villain shows us in this hand that most are inclined to call for value and not turn their hands into bluffs (Theyre never shoving for value here).
So we're left with villain shoving nuts or air, and calling all value hands. Even with pot odds, villain has to have a ton of bluffs in his river shove range to make this make sense- and I just dont see that.
Do you get more value out of 99-JJ by checking turn / betting river, or betting turn?
There is no reads in op and without, I simply not going to put villain on some kind of crazy line where he flats a 3 bet, checks turn and shoves river. Odds of that are so low discussing a shove range is ridiculous. As I said before, if you are going to find a fold on the river then might as well bet turn and fold there or bet turn and then check/fold river if villain flats turn and bets river. It's the EXACT SAME THING, in fact you've shown more strength by continuing to fire and therefore even more likely behind.
Extracting maximum value is dividing up your chip stack in such a way that neither player can fold on river and then shove ranges be dammed. If villain has 56 so be it but to play it any other way in 6 max is MUTB syndrome to the extreme.
What villain folds turn bet after flatting flop 3 bet?
Just noticed he had 2 diamonds. What's the reasoning behind not betting turn?
From good villain perspective what hand does hero have that villain beats that 3 bets flop, checks turn and bets river? I don't see how that adds value from anyone that wouldn't also call turn bet.
edit: oops 3 bet
If he calls the flop, he will call the turn and the river.
Hand analysis is biased a bit I think based on results being shown.
Because you can extract more value on the river from non Q hands.
If Im villain, I flat pre (even in 6 max) with 99/TT.
I also flat the 3b on the flop.
However Im less inclined to call another bullet on the turn, but would value call river.
99-JJ, AK are POSSIBLE. Im putting those in the range OTF, but you're correct, its weighted heavier towards nut hands.
You cant discount these hands out of the range though.
But that is you, and most online players are not you.
The point is you cant exclude these hands from the range. We cant just say villain only has qx. Of course we extract max value from qx by betting turn.
But how do we extract max value from villains entire range?
IF a diamond doesn't come.
After he just flats the flop raise, we can. Unless he is THAT good to hold in the reins and not get it in on a flop that we've clearly shown we like. The majority of poker players are not taking this line with a set, the only hand we are worried about.
Fair, I think its a leak that we exclude all hands except qx. I think you lose value from all non q hands. I think its also a leak that you assume villain is not competent, even in a $8 MTT. Maybe 3-4 years ago, but not now.
If a diamond comes, we may get a wider range of calls on a river vbet - because having flushes in our range is highly unlikely (It looks alot more "bluffy").
Im also MORE inclined to call a river shove from villain if a random diamond falls.
Yes, against THIS SPECIFIC HAND, we lost value. Im not debating that. We get it in on the turn no problem 100% of the time when the cards are face up.
The point is, while playing, we dont know he has this hand, so we have to try to maximize the value we get from what the villain POTENTIALLY has.
Rare is the villain who follows that specific line with 99-JJ, which is the only way hero's line adds value.
More likely is player who isn't going to fold a far wider range on turn and river.
I don't get the thinking that we should auto-try to get 75bb in after putting in 2bb preflop just because it's 6max. It's not like concepts like wa/wb and pot control don't apply when you're playing shorthanded.