etiquette and the rules...using gambits?

Redington

I would like to get some feedback on this;

I was Tivo watching alot of poker last night; including celebrity poker (hey the wife wanted american idol I had to put my foot down!!!), Anyways there is a play where Norm Mcdonald acted as to move all in and wanted to see what his opponent would do. It was obviously acting and easy to see. Phil Gordon noticed it as well, stating if the other guy saw it he should be prepared to bet on the flop no matter what happened, but nothing about bad form or bad etiquette or rule breaking.

It got me to thinking the other times I have seen this and I went Tivoing. The 2005 WSOP Main event Negreanu vs the Swede. Daniel makes a motion to move his chips but over shoots them, no where near the acting of Norm Mcdonald, but after watching it a few times Im sure it was a gambit.

WSOP Tourney of Champions, Raymer pushes against Annie Duke, she leans back and then moves forward quickly and almost knocks her whole stack onto the felt.
Given the above examples; I started to looked at this again, Gambit?

The first was obviously overacting, the other two were very subtle however, they woiuld accomplish the same things. In both case the Swede and Raymer showed no emotion.
In both cases Neg and Duke folded thier hands.

Is this a a weapon that should be added to an arsenal or is this bad taste/ cheating?

ScottyZ

First of all, on Celebrity Poker they generally allow a lot of leeway in terms of the poker rules (string betting, etc) including the one you are mentioning. It must be a nightmare to deal that game.

It is completely outside of proper poker ethics (and therefore should be against the rules in a legitimate cardroom) to make "fake" moves with your chips or cards.

It's unfortunate that a lot of players are going to pick up on things like this from shows like Celebrity Poker. It's fortunate that they may, at the same time, learn some "strategy" from these kinds of shows. :cool:

I believe Annie Duke is giving Bret Jungblut (sp?) hell for doing something like this (although we didn't see coverage what actually happened... it struck me as possibly being a "fake" fold) during one of the WSOP episodes.

Knocking your chips over by accident should usually be undoable. Raising "by accident" is a bit of a grey area in terms of this rule. A newbie auto-raising (when he/she could have checked and didn't really want to raise) on the big blind is a typical example of this.

ScottyZ

stpboy

I have to admit I have been guilty of this. Zithal pointed it out to me once that I had done this at his tournament vs. a new player. A flush card came on the river and I had top pair all the way through. He was first to act and I went for my chips, I then said "oh wait, your first to bet". He checked and I checked behind him. Sure enough he had the flush and was kicking himself. Would I do this again? I have struggled with whether or not I would do this again, depends on the game I guess. Is it the same as sitting back in your chair thinking about your decision to call a bet when you've just flopped the nuts? Is it ethical? Is it illegal? Is it smart play? Sure it's a smart play if it works. Ethical and Illegal, there are a lot of things in the poker world that may not seem ethical but that's the nature of the beast I suppose.


stp

ScottyZ

These kinds of "reaching for chips" moves are in a grey area I think. It really depends on exactly what you are doing with your chips or cards.

I should clarify that what I meant by '"fake" moves' in

ScottyZ wrote:

It is completely outside of proper poker ethics (and therefore should be against the rules in a legitimate cardroom) to make "fake" moves with your chips or cards.

was actually starting a real physical poker betting (or folding) action, and then stopping it. For example, beginning to actually slide all of your chips into the pot trying to guage a reaction from your opponent.

Even still, I think I shouldn't have been so absolute in the previous remark. There is a lot of difficulty in enforcing these kinds of rules.

For example, sometimes you'll find a player (with no ill-intent) who looks like he/she is beginning to fold, but is actually still thinking about his/her decision. If this person legitimately changes his/her mind after making an initial motion is this unethical? Probably not. It is going to de difficult for a dealer or other observer to determine whether this was angle shooting? Definitely.

Reaching for your chips out of turn, or doing things like picking up chips and playing with them would probably be fine in a lot of cases. The complicating factor here is that there are legitimate reasons that you might reach for your chips and/or move them around (e.g. if you want to count them).

Things like intentionally acting out of turn with a real poker action are most likely a no-no.

ScottyZ

Redington

stpboy wrote:

I have to admit I have been guilty of this. Zithal pointed it out to me once that I had done this at his tournament vs. a new player. A flush card came on the river and I had top pair all the way through. He was first to act and I went for my chips, I then said "oh wait, your first to bet". He checked and I checked behind him. Sure enough he had the flush and was kicking himself. Would I do this again? I have struggled with whether or not I would do this again, depends on the game I guess. Is it the same as sitting back in your chair thinking about your decision to call a bet when you've just flopped the nuts? Is it ethical? Is it illegal? Is it smart play? Sure it's a smart play if it works. Ethical and Illegal, there are a lot of things in the poker world that may not seem ethical but that's the nature of the beast I suppose.


stp

I have this same question about my personal play. I have gambits that I use, reverse tells, over tells non - tells bets etc. Where does the line get drawn, what about counting chips (pre - action) or asking for a chip count post action?

But, I am wondering if this gambit in particular is in use at the highest levels? Maybe Im reading too much into it, and the two pro where not 'acting' at all.

Is this just another aspect of the game?

ScoobyD

I don't think asking for a chip count, playing with chips, counting chips etc. is anywhere close to over the line. What are you supposed to do, just sit there like a complete statue? I think deliberately acting out of turn (a la Norm McDonald in donkey poker showdown) is leaps and bounds over the line. I think his action should have been binding. Oh, just once I'd love to see the dealer stop the string bets, or have Phil Gordon come over and cuff someone in the head for a bonehead play... That being said, I have generally no problem if a new player inadvertantly makes a mistake (accidentally raising in the BB, an accidental string bet, etc.) as in general I don't see it as angle shooting, just ignorance of the rules...

Redington

ScoobyD wrote:

I don't think asking for a chip count, playing with chips, counting chips etc. is anywhere close to over the line. What are you supposed to do, just sit there like a complete statue? I think deliberately acting out of turn (a la Norm McDonald in donkey poker showdown) is leaps and bounds over the line. I think his action should have been binding. Oh, just once I'd love to see the dealer stop the string bets, or have Phil Gordon come over and cuff someone in the head for a bonehead play... That being said, I have generally no problem if a new player inadvertantly makes a mistake (accidentally raising in the BB, an accidental string bet, etc.) as in general I don't see it as angle shooting, just ignorance of the rules...

Scooby, I don't mind if that play happened ala Norm Mcdonald as I dont think anything could stop me from getting my chips in on the turn. It was out of turn, non binding and WAY over the top.

However, in both the case of Annie Duke, and Daniel they were both in turn and the move was sutble enough not to be over acting. The benfit being that you get a quick second reaction to what your opponent was thinking.

So, gambit or poor play>?

ScoobyD

Like you said, the key word is subtlety. I haven't actually seen the "moves" in question, but I think as long as the player doesn't actually push the chips in the pot or make a verbal declaration out of turn, I'd say tell fishing is OK. Of course I probably have a lot less B&M experience than most of the players here, just my 2 cents...

Yorkpoker

My experience has been as follows:

Any actual poker move, where chips are pushed in, action is declared out of turn ("I raise" or "I check" out of turn) or perhaps an intentional string bet is made (to see what happens) - tend to be upheld in a game. In other words, the dealer of supervisor will enforce the action if it affects play. I have been called on my misplay (I rarely do this intentionally) and I have no problem when it is pointed out. I sure as heck point it out when someone tries it on me.

The other half of this story is the psychological side of things. I refer to things like: talking to your opponent (psyching them out), waiting them out, staring them down, moving to fold without actually letting go of your cards or declaring it, showing major strength by betting and then preparing to muck when your opponent folds (this is a good one by the way). These are all kosher. Some work better than others, no question, and each one of the second type I have no problem with - either doing it or having it done to me.

I guess once you have been exposed to it, your skin thickens.

Tredeb

Just a quick question, not having played live except with friends.

Are you allowed to place your chips in front of you to count them out before you bet/raise or do you have to state your intentions and then proceed?

I am thinking along the lines of taking a stack of chips and placing them in 4 of 5 stacks of easily counted increments of, say, $10 and then bettin only some or all or grabbing more and adding to the stacks.

Is it ok if I do this right in front of me or will this be my bet. The way I understand it, if I say I'll raise $50 then I can grab chips one at a time until I have $50. What happens when I want to raise $50 and I grab a handful and start to count them out but I only grabbed $40.

This is assuming that I am doing this right in front of me and I haven't made a motion to push my chips in yet.

I guess this question wasn't all that quick!

Flint Bones

A simple form of this that is perfectly fine is the following:

Player A pushes "All-in".

While looking at the player ask, "How much to call". Do it quick and without thought. Gauge their response. I don't have an issue with that.

Dave Scharf

Etiquette lately has become TERRIBLE. Last night in my local tournament I saw three players (at least) showing their cards to another player who had folded. That kind of play is for the frat house game. Leave it out of the casino. And, I saw one player get all in and then narrate the flop, turn, and river out loud despite there were two live players still in the hand!

I haven’t given a lot of thought to "angles" but off the top of my head my thinking is: If you are purposely behaving in a manner which is meant to induce one action or another from your opponent then you are over the line. On the other hand, words or gestures which help you gauge your opponent’s hand are probably OK. So, the stuff described by the original poster looks OK to me.

Are you allowed to place your chips in front of you to count them out before you bet/raise or do you have to state your intentions and then proceed?

You are allowed to do this. As long is it’s not a bet. Generally, it’s east to tell the difference between someone who is counting out their chips and someone who is betting. I frequently count out the number of chips that I will have to call with so that I can give myself a clear count and visual appreciation of how much I will have left. Usually I will state, "Time please" so that there is no mistake as to what I am doing.

The way I understand it, if I say I'll raise $50 then I can grab chips one at a time until I have $50. What happens when I want to raise $50 and I grab a handful and start to count them out but I only grabbed $40.

In this second case, if you have not stated your raise amount, then your bet will be $40.

ScottyZ

What happens when I want to raise $50 and I grab a handful and start to count them out but I only grabbed $40.

Is all you're doing grabbing chips, or have you completed some kind of movement that looks like you are actually betting those chips?

If you're just grabbing your chips, I think you are still allowed to bet whatever you feel like (or check). If you have already made a very suggestive betting motion, that's a bet of $40.

ScottyZ

Dave Scharf

To clarify, ScottyZ is right. It has to "look like a bet" to be a bet. Or, in the case of some poker rooms, the chips have to cross the betting line.

Tredeb

thanks for the prompt response.

I think my basic understanding was correct, but I may get up to regina or saskatoon one of these days and I wanted to be sure. I'm sure I'll get corrected if I do something wrong at any rate.