What Makes your Tournament Selection Decisions?
Here we go, an attempt to add to our poker content...
For me it's always been a social aspect, which is the reason I play less and define myself as recreational. Regina, Edmonton & Vegas I always either go with friends or have family in that city to visit anyway.
I honestly don't give a shit about rake, as I see it as a tax and know in many cases its gonna be hire because the brand almost guarantees success with it, so they ask their cut...at the end of the day if I think I can profit I play.
Winning or losing to me is whether or not I pocketed more than I started with, expenses are still vacation or staycation, if I win those back too, great.
I asked some extremely successfull players from the East why I didn't see their names at last years WSOPc in Vancouver; we all knew it would see 1000 players and I would have thought a 1.5k was big enough. I asked another pro and they all seemed to answer along the lines of "your min cash should cover your expenses"
I thought it was a pretty good rule of thumb, if you are in it strictly to make money.
As far as outside our borders others also said it was about the destination as well, if they had a ton of friends going and it was a tropical or interesting destination. I asked a few international pros and destinations like London or Monte Carlo they said were very difficult to best given the overhead. So yeah, go deep at WSOPE or forget it.
I seen a ton of players that would never play a $200 + $35 here in Canada all over the Daily Deepstacks, but simply because of prize-pool, stuck to them. 10 try's later, one such "hits" for 28k and I believe that even a recreational player can do this with average skill if he keeps flipping the coin at the end long and often enough.
Here in Alberta or Canada for most events, we don't get enough players in $500 or 1ks to cover things with a min cash I don't think, but shouldn't it be easier to climb the ladder in a smaller field?
Thoughts? More to Add?
For me it's always been a social aspect, which is the reason I play less and define myself as recreational. Regina, Edmonton & Vegas I always either go with friends or have family in that city to visit anyway.
I honestly don't give a shit about rake, as I see it as a tax and know in many cases its gonna be hire because the brand almost guarantees success with it, so they ask their cut...at the end of the day if I think I can profit I play.
Winning or losing to me is whether or not I pocketed more than I started with, expenses are still vacation or staycation, if I win those back too, great.
I asked some extremely successfull players from the East why I didn't see their names at last years WSOPc in Vancouver; we all knew it would see 1000 players and I would have thought a 1.5k was big enough. I asked another pro and they all seemed to answer along the lines of "your min cash should cover your expenses"
I thought it was a pretty good rule of thumb, if you are in it strictly to make money.
As far as outside our borders others also said it was about the destination as well, if they had a ton of friends going and it was a tropical or interesting destination. I asked a few international pros and destinations like London or Monte Carlo they said were very difficult to best given the overhead. So yeah, go deep at WSOPE or forget it.
I seen a ton of players that would never play a $200 + $35 here in Canada all over the Daily Deepstacks, but simply because of prize-pool, stuck to them. 10 try's later, one such "hits" for 28k and I believe that even a recreational player can do this with average skill if he keeps flipping the coin at the end long and often enough.
Here in Alberta or Canada for most events, we don't get enough players in $500 or 1ks to cover things with a min cash I don't think, but shouldn't it be easier to climb the ladder in a smaller field?
Thoughts? More to Add?
Comments
I've always enjoyed poker more in Calgary and Edmonton than anywhere else. The players are just nicer than grinding a tournament with wannabee pros in Vegas or California -- even more-so since Black Friday which seems to have caused every bitter low limit douche to don a pair of shades, a cap, a hoodie, some headphones and diddle on an ipad while berating players and talking strategy after every hand at the table. I never really experienced much of this in AB.
Like your title:)
But the number of players that can profit in the long run and YOUR profit depends on how much of YOUR buy-in goes to YOUR prize pool.
Curious to hear how much the potential for profit plays a factor for others when selecting tournaments.
For example:
Casino A:
$230 buyin, patience factor 37, rake 4%, 30 players max, $6600 est prizepool
vs.
Casino B:
$230 buy-in, patience factor 18.43, rake 13%, 80 players max, $16000 est prizepool
Do you play at Casino A with the better structure and rake or go to Casino B where the prizepool is more than double?
I like this question. I'd prefer B. I like more payouts and bigger while they are at it. Even in a great structure, it's going to be really top heavy and you have to win period. If you win B great, but I'm guessing you could walk away with As first place money in a 3 way chop given crap shoot at end.
Or, win enough with a min cash to play A as well
Assuming similar opponents, let's say that I have roughly ~50% ROI on the part of my buy-in that goes to the prize pool, so my EV for the Casino B $200+$30 is ~$300 (200 * 1.5). With the lower rake & better structure, I expect my EV in Casino A $220+$10 to be at least $330+ (220 * 1.5). This month, I'm playing in Casino B since a bunch of forumers have already staked me for the $500+$50, but if your exact $230 scenario ever came up, I would choose Casino A since I'm an EV-maximizing kind of guy.
Welcome back to ON
is no
What if both events had more than 80 players? ie Casino A -90 players / Casino B - 240?
In my example I would normally choose Casino A because of the better structure that I believe gives me a better chance finishing in the top 10% or better and profiting. Completely agree with Blondefish's post. However, JontM makes valid points that I wonder if I've been underestimating, especially in events that draw huge crowds, but have what I consider to be a crappy structure.
For example:
In Vegas this summer I chose the Golden Nugget $135 events with a 27.17 patience factor over the $130 Rio Daily Deepstacks, with a 7.87 patience factor. The field sizes at the Nugget were between 120-190 on days I played, small, compared to the massive fields at the Rio. I'm wondering if I made a mistake not taking at least one shot at the Rio?
While the US is the worst country in the world for Canadians to buy into a poker tournament, if somebody put a gun to head to my head, I would narrow my choices to those with the lowest rake. Playing in the WSOP Seniors Event one day may be on my -EV bucket list.
Lately I work too much to play or post for that matter so when a tournament comes up that I can play I do. Rake and structure do not matter to much at that time.
I do ok in the cashing side of things too.
Whenever I play a tournament (which isn't that often), I am amazed at how terrible the players are in relation to cash games. Sometimes I think I'm back in 2003. In my experience, $300-1k buy-ins have very weak fields and I would think that field size and structure are probably more important than minor differences in rake...although rake should factor in.
Rio 22% - $105 + 22.50 + 7.50(staff gratuity) - buy in was $135 not $130 as I said b4
Golden Nugget 28% - $97 + 25 + 10 (optional bonus buy) + 3 (staff gratuity)
GN did a bad job of making all the fees clear. None of the structure sheets clearly stated how much the house fee was. The extra 3% taken off the prizepool for staff was only in the fine print. When registering you were not asked if you would like the $10 bonus buy - they just asked for $135 and stacks were already set up with the bonus included.
Yes. I just dug out the structure sheet I brought home from Vegas to double check my #'s.
Apparently I was wrong about the "massive fields" for the $135.
Average Fields for 2012 Rio Deepstacks:
$135 - 150
$185 - 323
$235 - 977
Looking at Hendon Mob- this years numbers look similar.
The $235 has a 16.02 patience factor and 17% rake. I was under the false impression that all these events were getting same numbers and I just didn't get it. This makes more sense.
Most of the tournaments I play in the US are low buy in with good structures- 1st place is rarely >5k so withholding tax is not a big issue. Seneca is the only place I know of that takes withholding off any wins (and does so off your gross winnings) My husband has banned us from playing there. lol
Factor this in...RIO $235 were 1400-1700 players last week of June while Ladies event and 50k where going on.
Michael Smith of Saskatoon, who is also a bit of a stickler for rake and field size as a pro played these almost exclusively. He cashed in a few, but his 2nd for 28k made it worth while.
I talked to some Calgary regs, husband and wife, one or other cashed each time to almost free-roll, then both went deep for about 10k combined.
They seen a lot of them end in 6 way deals for 30k each, given the low patience factor.
Shitty rake or not, do these sound profitable for good players now?
He is one smart cookie!
That's nice but what are the field sizes in the weekly events?
1. Expenses
2. Available cash games when I'm knocked out of a tournament.
I stopped going to Vancouver for those reasons. Flight, hotel, car rental was like the most expensive in all of Canada (maybe Toronto is the same, but I live here, so no extra expenses). Also I remember the cash games were like a 4+ hour wait to get on.
Pretty much Canadian casinos are drawing dead when it comes to attracting foreigners for tournaments, they pay their dealers too much instead of letting them keep their own tips, and their gaming rules are too strict. Montreal is a bit better, at least they serve free alcohol and allow iPods at the table, and they have hot waitresses. Too bad the rake is too high.
Vegas is still the best overall. Cheap hotels, cheap flights, cheap car rentals, low minimum wage, lots of competition with casinos to offer better service, and tons to do other than gamble.
But back on the topic of tournaments, just make sure they got at least 50 players and there's more than 5 tournaments in the series is good enough for me.
I have looked at the WSOP, Rio, Venetian, Bellagio, Orleans and Golden Nugget schedules, and aside from cash games and satellites, the three $254+$46 (15.3% fees) Survivor tournaments at the Venetian may be the only +EV tournaments for us to play.
Wish I could answer this!!
Seems like WSOP bracelet events are the only series to have released both structure & schedule. No structure for WSOP side events yet.
Venetian, Bellagio, Golden Nugget schedule out, but no structures yet. (Golden Nugget noon tournaments have been lowered from 40min levels to 30min-but still no structure to be found)
Wynn, Aria, Binions, Planet Hollywood, and M Resort have all said they will release a 2014 summer MTT schedule but have yet to do so. (Planet Hollywood series expected to replace Caesars Megastack series)
Based on last years series I would agree with this. Hopefully Binions keeps 40 min levels and Golden Nugget has improved the structure so shorter levels don't completely kill the patience factor this year.
Planet Hollywood's PHamous Poker Series V will be on June 6 - July 6. Has M Resort said they will have any other tournament besides the Hollywood Poker Open? Aside from satellites, the only three tourneys worth playing for me so far are: LCS on June 7-9, SPT on June 8-11, & Survivor on June 1 or 16.