Matthew 7 15-20
Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. you will know them by their fruits. Do men gather fruits from thorn bushes or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown in the fire. Therefore by their fruits shall ye know them.
I apologize for the length of this post and the tardiness i showed to write it. To be honest, it was more difficult for me to write up compared to part 1 since I had studied all the evidence in part 1 previously. Enjoy!
Part 2: With Big Numbers Comes Big Responsibility
When we as humans talk about the universe, we tend to gloss over certain facts that, with all due respect, our brains truly can't fathom. When some of the actual numbers are considered with as much effort as we can muster, the significance of our existence certainly becomes feeble. Furthermore, the chance of organic life coming into being somewhere in the universe seems fairly likely. Here are a few numbers that we must keep in mind when considering the chance of our existence with respect to the universe as a whole:
First of all, we must consider the fact that we are limited in the capacity of what we can see of our universe. The "observable universe" consists of all the light that has traveled from the objects in space and that has reached Earth so that we have been able to observe it. The best estimate of the diameter of the observable universe is 28 billion parsecs or 93 billion light years (93,000,000,000!) - which means that the edge of the observable universe is about 46 billion light years* away.
*A quick explanation of light years is necessary I think in order for us to truly attempt to comprehend the enormity we're discussing here. The alleged fastest possible speed anything in the universe can travel is light speed. Light speed is considered to be exactly 299,792,458 metres per second. If we were able to travel that fast, it would still take us about 46 billion years to reach the end of the known universe (just imagine what we might observe if we could see beyond!). To put this in some perspective, the fastest humans have been able to travel (not including the Earth's rotation, etc.) was 39,897 km/h during the Apollo 10 mission (btw, just to compare in the same measurement, light speed is 1,079,252,848.8 km/h). Wow, the known universe is big - and there's still more out there we can't see yet!
Another significant number to consider is the amount of stars in the universe. Currently we cannot know for certain how many stars there are, but best guesses put the range somewhere between 10^22 to 10^24 (that is at least 100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 stars!). It is reasonably assumed that there are over 100 billion galaxies in the universe and there are roughly 100 billion stars per galaxy. It is a fact that every single star has a circumstellar habitable zone (aka Goldilocks zone) in which orbiting planets can support liquid water. What this means is that any planets orbiting stars within this zone have the potential to produce organic life.
Furthermore, consider that the universe is considered to be approximately 13.77 billion years old. In comparison, homo sapiens are considered to be only 200,000 years old. To put this in perspective, modern humans have only existed in the universe for around 0.00001452% of the total time the universe has existed.
One more number I'd like to include is the chance of being dealt a royal flush: it is 4 out of 2,598,960 which is 0.00015% (that is, being dealt 5 cards only and getting a royal flush with no additional draws). I know players who have been playing for years and have never gotten a royal flush.
Now, you are probably asking why are all these numbers significant in reference to the argument of atheism? Let's consider it from this point of view. Does it make more sense that God created all of this entire universe just so we humans could grow and develop on one single, tiny planet while the rest of the universe sat dormant of organic life, or that organic life as we know it was created simply from random chance since there are so many, SO MANY, opportunities for it to arise?
If the chance of organic life beginning around a random star in the universe was the same chance as getting dealt a royal flush, then there would potentially be approximately 15,000,000,000,000,000,000 amount of stars being orbited by a planet with organic life somewhere in the universe! (Yes,I know this math is not exact because not every star has planets orbiting it and some have more than one, but despite that the example serves the purpose.) That is a lot, but even if the chance was way WAY less than that, it's easy to see that there is still very good odds that somewhere in the universe organic life could spring up just from the sheer number of chances for it to do so. Not to mention, humans have been around for an extremely miniscule amount of time in the universe. It's definitely possible that entire civilizations and species on other planets have come and gone millions or even billions of years before we were even able to begin observing!
(A couple side notes to consider that I won't get into detail about, but are very significant in this argument, are the assumptions that there is only one universe (as opposed to the theory of the 'multiverse') and that there has only ever been one Big Bang. Some theorize multiple big bangs throughout history while others suggest multiple big bangs happening simultaneously all the time in various universes!)
Moreover, if any other planet in the entire universe were to have organic life, especially any form of intelligent or even semi-intelligent life, God and religion would fail and crumble. Nowhere has any major religion, nor major God for that matter, discussed any possibility of life outside of our planet. Practically all religions deem us, humans, as the bee's knees - the main result of creation. They all argue that we are the pinnacle of the existence of life in the universe. Any proof of life forms from another planet would bring almost all religious doctrines crashing down.
The numbers don't lie, but humans tend to most of the time.
Stay tuned (eventually) for Part 3: Intelligent Design or Stupid Human Minds?
I feel a migraine coming on.... Allergy to big numbers...
Couldn't each galaxy have a god or can god only create one life form or in one place... Does the bible (or Koran for that matter) say that there can only be one god or that god can only create one life form? Just speculating...:)
@comp and 800over: my argument is focusing on the bigger religions and the traditional understanding of god. i can't be focusing on every single religion. for example, scientologists believe in aliens and thetans so their beliefs can not be referenced in this argument. also, buddhism for example would not fit into this argument.
like milo said, god theoretically could create more life forms in other galaxies or even in other universes allegedly, but none of his teachings suggest this. in fact, practically all his teachings suggest the complete opposite. and we humans aren't allowed to pick and choose what parts of God's words we're allowed to follow and which ones we can ignore.
I appreciate the efforts and am looking forward to part three. But I think "big numbers" seems more like grasping at something and hoping. "Big numbers" also don't account for the intrinsic detail for everything (related to our earth) being perfectly in place. I also don't believe (an I am not an astronomer) that there is a known planet anywhere in the known universe that has a heat source like the sun and a moon with its gravitational forces control the oceans. I am not a math wiz by any stretch of the imagination, but it seems to me believing in "big numbers" about how everything came into existence is still a belief system.
Really and truly I think it is easier to say "For our universe to happen by random chance is at least on par with the theory that there was a designer. " And then say "I don't think we can ever know who the designer is and I reject that Jesus was who he said He was - God."
I would like to know of some example of things that we can see that weren't designed. Things like the intrinsic details of the earth from the sun and moon and at the perfect angle in order for life to exist.
in fact, practically all his teachings suggest the complete opposite. and we humans aren't allowed to pick and choose what parts of God's words we're allowed to follow and which ones we can ignore.
I would concur with this. Did a paper on this before there was computer and I don't have it anymore.
Christianity takes the Old and New Testaments to have a better understanding of who God is, but no man can ever completely understand God - for then he would be God.
I don't think science can explain everything. Contrary to the likes of what Sam Harris is preaching and make no mistake about it. Harris, Dawkins, and Dan Dennett are preachers. And they are trying to convert people into there way of thinking. The don't have facts, only theories that they can't prove. Read Sam Harris's book on Free Will he says you have none. Think about the end result of that theory.
I appreciate the efforts and am looking forward to part three. But I think "big numbers" seems more like grasping at something and hoping. "Big numbers" also don't account for the intrinsic detail for everything (related to our earth) being perfectly in place. I also don't believe (an I am not an astronomer) that there is a known planet anywhere in the known universe that has a heat source like the sun and a moon with its gravitational forces control the oceans. I am not a math wiz by any stretch of the imagination, but it seems to me believing in "big numbers" about how everything came into existence is still a belief system.
Really and truly I think it is easier to say "For our universe to happen by random chance is at least on par with the theory that there was a designer. " And then say "I don't think we can ever know who the designer is and I reject that Jesus was who he said He was - God."
I would like to know of some example of things that we can see that weren't designed. Things like the intrinsic details of the earth from the sun and moon and at the perfect angle in order for life to exist.
yes, i figured that this point would arise from my part 2 so i will be attempting to discuss the intelligent design argument in part 3 (although i'm not too confident in my argument yet )
Didn't you just say the other day you had "nothing to offer" with regards to going off the 'working for the man' grid? You're a bloody writer man! Go Gonzo!
Exodus 20:5 You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me,
Deuteronomy 4:24
For the Lord your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.
Didn't you just say the other day you had "nothing to offer" with regards to going off the 'working for the man' grid? You're a bloody writer man! Go Gonzo!
lol thanks wildbill. i've always been interested in becoming a writer to tell you the truth. my problem is that i rarely finish anything i write as i tend to begin to hate it before it's finished and i just give up. i really have to try and keep motivated i guess.
yes, i figured that this point would arise from my part 2 so i will be attempting to discuss the intelligent design argument in part 3 (although i'm not too confident in my argument yet )
Before posting you argument Try Darwins Doubt, Dr. Stephen C. Meyer. I will even buy it for you for Christmas seeing as I am coming home ^-^
Going to bed, will see what transpires while I sleep.
Exodus 20:5 You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me,
Deuteronomy 4:24
For the Lord your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.
How about an original free will thought rather than just quoting someone else's writings blindly... Especially writings which are so open to interpretation.
I'm a big fan of people who can demonstrate reasonable arguments either way rather than blindly discounting either side..
Before posting you argument Try Darwins Doubt, Dr. Stephen C. Meyer. I will even buy it for you for Christmas seeing as I am coming home ^-^
Going to bed, will see what transpires while I sleep.
just read some comments from that book and it definitely sounds interesting. it's true that many people don't know the specific details surrounding darwin. a lot of the claims that are associated with darwin actually came from his group of followers and not from himself. in fact, in the origin of species, darwin never even uses the word evolution!
[/B]
I don't think science can explain everything. Contrary to the likes of what Sam Harris is preaching and make no mistake about it. Harris, Dawkins, and Dan Dennett are preachers. And they are trying to convert people into there way of thinking. The don't have facts, only theories that they can't prove. Read Sam Harris's book on Free Will he says you have none. Think about the end result of that theory.
Nobody finds this argument against science slightly ironic coming from the lord almighty side?
How about an original free will thought rather than just quoting someone else's writings blindly... Especially writings which are so open to interpretation.
I'm a big fan of people who can demonstrate reasonable arguments either way rather than blindly discounting either side..
I think you have missed every one of his previous posts. Or the entire reason for religion.
I would concur with this. Did a paper on this before there was computer and I don't have it anymore.
Christianity takes the Old and New Testaments to have a better understanding of who God is, but no man can ever completely understand God - for then he would be God.
I don't think science can explain everything. Contrary to the likes of what Sam Harris is preaching and make no mistake about it. Harris, Dawkins, and Dan Dennett are preachers. And they are trying to convert people into there way of thinking. The don't have facts, only theories that they can't prove. Read Sam Harris's book on Free Will he says you have none. Think about the end result of that theory.
And on the sixth day the lord sayeth, "thou shall not understand science nor the use of homonyms". And so they didn't. And they were happy.
Comments
I hope you aren't loving them in the traditional "Christian Way".
I like when you play with the fruit.
Off to do some yard work . . .
If you gag you are doing it wrong.
#avocadophone
I very much enjoyed part 1. I've been waiting patiently for part 2 ever since
sorry. been pretty busy lately. since someone is actually interested i'll write up part 2 soon.
Part 2: With Big Numbers Comes Big Responsibility
When we as humans talk about the universe, we tend to gloss over certain facts that, with all due respect, our brains truly can't fathom. When some of the actual numbers are considered with as much effort as we can muster, the significance of our existence certainly becomes feeble. Furthermore, the chance of organic life coming into being somewhere in the universe seems fairly likely. Here are a few numbers that we must keep in mind when considering the chance of our existence with respect to the universe as a whole:
First of all, we must consider the fact that we are limited in the capacity of what we can see of our universe. The "observable universe" consists of all the light that has traveled from the objects in space and that has reached Earth so that we have been able to observe it. The best estimate of the diameter of the observable universe is 28 billion parsecs or 93 billion light years (93,000,000,000!) - which means that the edge of the observable universe is about 46 billion light years* away.
*A quick explanation of light years is necessary I think in order for us to truly attempt to comprehend the enormity we're discussing here. The alleged fastest possible speed anything in the universe can travel is light speed. Light speed is considered to be exactly 299,792,458 metres per second. If we were able to travel that fast, it would still take us about 46 billion years to reach the end of the known universe (just imagine what we might observe if we could see beyond!). To put this in some perspective, the fastest humans have been able to travel (not including the Earth's rotation, etc.) was 39,897 km/h during the Apollo 10 mission (btw, just to compare in the same measurement, light speed is 1,079,252,848.8 km/h). Wow, the known universe is big - and there's still more out there we can't see yet!
Another significant number to consider is the amount of stars in the universe. Currently we cannot know for certain how many stars there are, but best guesses put the range somewhere between 10^22 to 10^24 (that is at least 100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 stars!). It is reasonably assumed that there are over 100 billion galaxies in the universe and there are roughly 100 billion stars per galaxy. It is a fact that every single star has a circumstellar habitable zone (aka Goldilocks zone) in which orbiting planets can support liquid water. What this means is that any planets orbiting stars within this zone have the potential to produce organic life.
Furthermore, consider that the universe is considered to be approximately 13.77 billion years old. In comparison, homo sapiens are considered to be only 200,000 years old. To put this in perspective, modern humans have only existed in the universe for around 0.00001452% of the total time the universe has existed.
One more number I'd like to include is the chance of being dealt a royal flush: it is 4 out of 2,598,960 which is 0.00015% (that is, being dealt 5 cards only and getting a royal flush with no additional draws). I know players who have been playing for years and have never gotten a royal flush.
Now, you are probably asking why are all these numbers significant in reference to the argument of atheism? Let's consider it from this point of view. Does it make more sense that God created all of this entire universe just so we humans could grow and develop on one single, tiny planet while the rest of the universe sat dormant of organic life, or that organic life as we know it was created simply from random chance since there are so many, SO MANY, opportunities for it to arise?
If the chance of organic life beginning around a random star in the universe was the same chance as getting dealt a royal flush, then there would potentially be approximately 15,000,000,000,000,000,000 amount of stars being orbited by a planet with organic life somewhere in the universe! (Yes,I know this math is not exact because not every star has planets orbiting it and some have more than one, but despite that the example serves the purpose.) That is a lot, but even if the chance was way WAY less than that, it's easy to see that there is still very good odds that somewhere in the universe organic life could spring up just from the sheer number of chances for it to do so. Not to mention, humans have been around for an extremely miniscule amount of time in the universe. It's definitely possible that entire civilizations and species on other planets have come and gone millions or even billions of years before we were even able to begin observing!
(A couple side notes to consider that I won't get into detail about, but are very significant in this argument, are the assumptions that there is only one universe (as opposed to the theory of the 'multiverse') and that there has only ever been one Big Bang. Some theorize multiple big bangs throughout history while others suggest multiple big bangs happening simultaneously all the time in various universes!)
Moreover, if any other planet in the entire universe were to have organic life, especially any form of intelligent or even semi-intelligent life, God and religion would fail and crumble. Nowhere has any major religion, nor major God for that matter, discussed any possibility of life outside of our planet. Practically all religions deem us, humans, as the bee's knees - the main result of creation. They all argue that we are the pinnacle of the existence of life in the universe. Any proof of life forms from another planet would bring almost all religious doctrines crashing down.
The numbers don't lie, but humans tend to most of the time.
Stay tuned (eventually) for Part 3: Intelligent Design or Stupid Human Minds?
Couldn't each galaxy have a god or can god only create one life form or in one place... Does the bible (or Koran for that matter) say that there can only be one god or that god can only create one life form? Just speculating...:)
Also, comp? First one of the 10 is the biggie . . . namely,
I am the Lord thy God. Thou shalt have no other Gods but Me.
Wouldn't that assume that Compuease believes what you do?
So that one god created many life forms over many universes, over and over?
Or do you really believe we are the only life form anywhere?
like milo said, god theoretically could create more life forms in other galaxies or even in other universes allegedly, but none of his teachings suggest this. in fact, practically all his teachings suggest the complete opposite. and we humans aren't allowed to pick and choose what parts of God's words we're allowed to follow and which ones we can ignore.
i'm assuming sarcasm...it doesn't always translate well through text.
Really and truly I think it is easier to say "For our universe to happen by random chance is at least on par with the theory that there was a designer. " And then say "I don't think we can ever know who the designer is and I reject that Jesus was who he said He was - God."
I would like to know of some example of things that we can see that weren't designed. Things like the intrinsic details of the earth from the sun and moon and at the perfect angle in order for life to exist.
I would concur with this. Did a paper on this before there was computer and I don't have it anymore.
Christianity takes the Old and New Testaments to have a better understanding of who God is, but no man can ever completely understand God - for then he would be God.
I don't think science can explain everything. Contrary to the likes of what Sam Harris is preaching and make no mistake about it. Harris, Dawkins, and Dan Dennett are preachers. And they are trying to convert people into there way of thinking. The don't have facts, only theories that they can't prove. Read Sam Harris's book on Free Will he says you have none. Think about the end result of that theory.
Jealous fucker, isn't He?
yes, i figured that this point would arise from my part 2 so i will be attempting to discuss the intelligent design argument in part 3 (although i'm not too confident in my argument yet
Exodus 20:5 You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me,
Deuteronomy 4:24
For the Lord your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.
lol thanks wildbill. i've always been interested in becoming a writer to tell you the truth. my problem is that i rarely finish anything i write as i tend to begin to hate it before it's finished and i just give up. i really have to try and keep motivated i guess.
Before posting you argument Try Darwins Doubt, Dr. Stephen C. Meyer. I will even buy it for you for Christmas seeing as I am coming home ^-^
Going to bed, will see what transpires while I sleep.
How about an original free will thought rather than just quoting someone else's writings blindly... Especially writings which are so open to interpretation.
I'm a big fan of people who can demonstrate reasonable arguments either way rather than blindly discounting either side..
FYP.. No different than a wife is it?
Man, I'm going somewhere but methinks not heaven...;)
just read some comments from that book and it definitely sounds interesting. it's true that many people don't know the specific details surrounding darwin. a lot of the claims that are associated with darwin actually came from his group of followers and not from himself. in fact, in the origin of species, darwin never even uses the word evolution!
choose not to worship at your own peril!
I don't take sides, I only moderate...;) I do like your arguments though, as others have said you have a writing skill..
Save me a seat.
Nobody finds this argument against science slightly ironic coming from the lord almighty side?
Mark
I think you have missed every one of his previous posts. Or the entire reason for religion.
#ironiccomp
And on the sixth day the lord sayeth, "thou shall not understand science nor the use of homonyms". And so they didn't. And they were happy.