CPF Online tournament hand analysis
[HTML][/HTML]Hey all
This should happen / be stickied for those that want to discuss / share thoughts / evaluate hands. I thought this hand was interesting.
PokerStars Home Game Hand #97181078688: {Canada's Poker Forum} Tournament #715999213, $5.00+$0.50 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level III (25/50) - 2013/04/14 20:53:32 ET
Table '715999213 1' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: TedtheEd (1810 in chips)
Seat 2: theyavvy (1535 in chips)
Seat 5: DrTyore (1220 in chips)
Seat 6: HelmuthsMo!e (1240 in chips)
Seat 7: wct hemi (3750 in chips)
Seat 8: wildbill7145 (1715 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 9: Buzzzardd (2730 in chips)
DrTyore: posts small blind 25
HelmuthsMo!e: posts big blind 50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to DrTyore [8d Jd]
wct hemi: raises 50 to 100
wildbill7145: folds
Buzzzardd: folds
TedtheEd: folds
theyavvy: raises 150 to 250
DrTyore: folds
HelmuthsMo!e: folds
wct hemi: calls 150
*** FLOP *** [Jc 6c Th]
wct hemi: bets 350
theyavvy: calls 350
*** TURN *** [Jc 6c Th] [Ts]
wct hemi: bets 750
theyavvy: raises 185 to 935 and is all-in
wct hemi: calls 185
*** RIVER *** [Jc 6c Th Ts] [5d]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
wct hemi: shows [Ah Tc] (three of a kind, Tens)
theyavvy: shows [6h 6d] (a full house, Sixes full of Tens)
theyavvy collected 3145 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 3145 | Rake 0
Board [Jc 6c Th Ts 5d]
Seat 1: TedtheEd folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: theyavvy (button) showed [6h 6d] and won (3145) with a full house, Sixes full of Tens
Seat 5: DrTyore (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: HelmuthsMo!e (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 7: wct hemi showed [Ah Tc] and lost with three of a kind, Tens
Seat 8: wildbill7145 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: Buzzzardd folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Make with the critiques
Mark
This should happen / be stickied for those that want to discuss / share thoughts / evaluate hands. I thought this hand was interesting.
PokerStars Home Game Hand #97181078688: {Canada's Poker Forum} Tournament #715999213, $5.00+$0.50 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level III (25/50) - 2013/04/14 20:53:32 ET
Table '715999213 1' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: TedtheEd (1810 in chips)
Seat 2: theyavvy (1535 in chips)
Seat 5: DrTyore (1220 in chips)
Seat 6: HelmuthsMo!e (1240 in chips)
Seat 7: wct hemi (3750 in chips)
Seat 8: wildbill7145 (1715 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 9: Buzzzardd (2730 in chips)
DrTyore: posts small blind 25
HelmuthsMo!e: posts big blind 50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to DrTyore [8d Jd]
wct hemi: raises 50 to 100
wildbill7145: folds
Buzzzardd: folds
TedtheEd: folds
theyavvy: raises 150 to 250
DrTyore: folds
HelmuthsMo!e: folds
wct hemi: calls 150
*** FLOP *** [Jc 6c Th]
wct hemi: bets 350
theyavvy: calls 350
*** TURN *** [Jc 6c Th] [Ts]
wct hemi: bets 750
theyavvy: raises 185 to 935 and is all-in
wct hemi: calls 185
*** RIVER *** [Jc 6c Th Ts] [5d]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
wct hemi: shows [Ah Tc] (three of a kind, Tens)
theyavvy: shows [6h 6d] (a full house, Sixes full of Tens)
theyavvy collected 3145 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 3145 | Rake 0
Board [Jc 6c Th Ts 5d]
Seat 1: TedtheEd folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: theyavvy (button) showed [6h 6d] and won (3145) with a full house, Sixes full of Tens
Seat 5: DrTyore (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: HelmuthsMo!e (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 7: wct hemi showed [Ah Tc] and lost with three of a kind, Tens
Seat 8: wildbill7145 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: Buzzzardd folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Make with the critiques
Mark
Comments
Pre-flop WCT does a min raise, Yavvy, why the re-raise with a pocket pair that is mediocre at best?
For those playing along at home btw, I have PT3 stats of
wcthemi (789 hands) - VP/PR/AFq = 39/14/52
yavvy (108 hands) - VP/PR/AFq = 31/9/49
Mark
Why are we minraising AT UTG?
Why are we 3 betting 66 and turning a value hand into a bluff?
Why are we flatting ATo to a 3 bet?
Why u fold j9s?
Likely lots of ingame stuff that anyone not playing can't see here so comments likely not too valuable.
PokerStars Home Game Hand #97181331437: {Canada's Poker Forum} Tournament #715999213, $5.00+$0.50 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level III (25/50) - 2013/04/14 21:04:13 ET
Table '715999213 1' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: TedtheEd (1835 in chips)
Seat 2: theyavvy (2005 in chips)
Seat 5: DrTyore (1145 in chips)
Seat 7: wct hemi (4745 in chips)
Seat 8: wildbill7145 (1640 in chips)
Seat 9: Buzzzardd (2630 in chips)
wct hemi: posts small blind 25
wildbill7145: posts big blind 50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to DrTyore [As Ks]
Buzzzardd: folds
TedtheEd: raises 75 to 125
theyavvy: raises 175 to 300
DrTyore: raises 845 to 1145 and is all-in
wct hemi: folds
wildbill7145: folds
TedtheEd: folds
theyavvy: calls 845
*** FLOP *** [2h 9d 6d]
*** TURN *** [2h 9d 6d] [Qs]
*** RIVER *** [2h 9d 6d Qs] [8s]
DrTyore said, "......I may have more Q&A after this hand"
*** SHOW DOWN ***
theyavvy: shows [Jd Td] (a straight, Eight to Queen)
DrTyore: shows [As Ks] (high card Ace)
theyavvy collected 2490 from pot
DrTyore finished the tournament in 6th place
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 2490 | Rake 0
Board [2h 9d 6d Qs 8s]
Seat 1: TedtheEd folded before Flop
Seat 2: theyavvy showed [Jd Td] and won (2490) with a straight, Eight to Queen
Seat 5: DrTyore (button) showed [As Ks] and lost with high card Ace
Seat 7: wct hemi (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 8: wildbill7145 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 9: Buzzzardd folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Stats:
TedtheEd (224 hands) VP / PF /AFq = 27/9/55
yavvy (108 hands) - VP/PR/AFq = 31/9/49
Drtyore (45 hands that night) - 22/11/36
(overall according to PT3) - 3730 hands 31.96 / 16.60 / 42.02
I'm curious as to the call of the AIPF Yavvy.. some read on me? Favorite hand?
Mark
Fair enough, which is why I kinda hope that all the participants in the game - who are all members here by definition - could contribute.
Mark
P.s. - the "why fold J9" was a joke right? lol
GG.
The First hand I had already decided to make a small raise.. to about 250 - thats what I usually do with small PP (feel free to explain to me why this is a bad idea) . WCT's actions didnt change my decision making process, why would it ?
So I caught trips, I put the other guy on a 10 and decided to slow play. and then I caught a FH and then I won - eazy game. Obv Im not a pro and Im sure your pro logic demands something different but then maybe thats a good thing..to be playing different ?
the second hand .. Even more simple - I saw a short stack and figured him for not too much either way I thought it was going to be a coin toss.. I felt priced in for that money.
Wetts - Im sure your superior poker skillz would kick my ass most of the time but I do ok at the level I play ($5-20) games, I hold my own and when we play poker in a $5 game Im not stepping to your level you are stooping to mine .
Im OK if you also do this with a very wide range of hands, but if youre standard OP is to 5x small pp (or 3bet all small PP), then thats not very sound strategy.
yavvy (108 hands) - VP/PR/AFq = 31/9/49 ??
You should play around with holdem resources.
Mark had 20+ BB here and he 4 bet jammed, I think you should think about the range of hands that do this, and determine whether your math is right.
Id respect the post more if you said, Marks a prick, so I called.
Believe me as you may, but this is actually one of my pro-community, trying to help efforts. It was suggested I may be just trying to stir the pot, which is a fair consideration, but I am of the mind that since hand analysis, though a great learning tool, has always been lacking context and such of the players involved. With this home game club, we all know who we all are, and that context is included.
If you're of the "I don't take it seriously and lol for $5", cool, but if people who played the game were to contribute, and give the thought processes, well, more the better IMO.
Mark
Thats how I would play those usually ..but it depends on the table massively. Sometimes I call and sometimes I go 10x.
I flat. But thats me. 10x is prob not very good tho....
You have a value hand, in position.
If UTG 4 bets you you obviously have to fold, and thats a waste of a value hand.
These are stats from Poker tracker, a program that records and provides stats on every player you have at the table.
VP = voluntarily put money in the pot. This is when you put money in play that isn't a blind or ante. A higher number in this regard suggests a "loose" player, while a lower number suggests "tight". I believe an average is around 20%, but I'm sure my betters here can correct me if I'm wrong.
PR = pre-flop raising. Of the times you put money in, this is how often that is a raise. Higher number means aggressive and lower number means passive. Not sure what an "average" % is here.
AFq = aggression frequency. My understanding is basically: (total bets + total raises) / (total bets + total raises + folds + calls)* 100 - these are "number of incidents" not "amount wagered".
Mark
Oh and its nice to be lucky for an entire hour
PokerStars Tournament #715999213, No Limit Hold'em
Buy-In: $5.00/$0.50 USD
7 players
Total Prize Pool: $35.00 USD
Tournament started 2013/04/14 20:30:00 ET
Dear theyavvy,
You finished the tournament in 1st place. A USD 17.50 award has been credited to your Real Money account.
Circus - Theme Song - YouTube
I agree with Wetts here... think of it like this:
The first raiser has a hand he likes, and you have a mediocre hand. If there was no raise in front of you, and you had a good position, I don't mind raising either. I tend towards 2.5-3xBB myself, depending on the table of course, sometimes you have to up that or can lower it.
Now, if you just call, and the action ends, you're now putting a low amount of money on a moderate (again, can't stress this enough AT BEST) hand. It has the potential (roughly 1/8 times IIRC) to hit a monster hand with another 6 on the flop. Ideally, you get a board that your hidden trips can stack a guy marrying top pair kinda thing.
When you re-raise, it shows a lot of strength, but in this case you don't have a lot of strength. Now, three things can happen with the original raiser. He can fold, and you win a mid-sized pot considering it's preflop. That's good! He can call, and you see a flop, which could be good (hit a set) or bad (scary board). Or he can re-raise, which in most cases will put you into a decision for a lot of your chips for a mediocre hand.
To go back to the 2nd option there, which happened in this case. He calls. Now think of all the scary boards that exist for 66! You're beat by any pair from 7-->A if he hits it, and only have about an 8% chance of passing him with your set on the turn/river. Further, unless you know a person outstandingly well, you're facing a wide range of hands they could be playing.
Example: A completely average player, tight but aggressive, not steaming.
You see a flop of A - T - 2 rainbow
Well, he raised in an early position, that Ace sucks to see, you're probably beat.
You see a flop of K - 9 - 4 rainbow
Well, is he playing AK like that? What about KQ? What about a medium, but bigger pair than ours like JJ / TT / 99? Am I beat?
You see a flop of J - 4 - 2 (2 clubs)
Well shit, did he play AJ like that? Maybe he has AK and 2 clubs, which would actually make him a favorite to win the hand.... Am I beat?
When wetts mentioned turning a value into a bluff, he was (correct me if I'm wrong) referring to the potentially huge hand of a set. One of the things I found most interesting when I was first picking up the game was the paradox of the best best hands - they're hardly beat, but they don't make you much money! A royal flush would have to have like A - Q - J on the board, and you'd have KT (which WTF were you doing in the hand with?). So you can't be beat, but only a few hands are going to really pay you off (AA, QQ, JJ, Ax and maybe some other flushes).
A board of A - 6 - J though, where you have 66, you're going to get paid a LOT by AJ, AK, AQ, etc. Three of a kind is a good hand, that will make you a lot of money.
Mark
No coin toss on that one.. rather happy with the decision
I find it's valuable.
And FWIW, as I said, I'm not trying to mock / trick anyone and tell them they're dumb. I've said for years that I wish there was a better analyses of the hands in these forum games.
However, I can see why some would think I'm doing the former.
Mark
So in this position for such a small raise I put a guy on suited connectors or Aq or A10 or something. I figure the small raise as an attempt to prevent much raising because anyone with a similar hand now is just going to call.. unless they have a really nice hand in which case they reraise and you bought some information. So I disregard the raise and continue on with my plan.
It was still a moderate hand imo and I feel like it gets rid of other limpers, which would have called if I called..maybe.
I have been watching poker on TV and taking some advice in this very forum.
I have been told the correct order of operations in this situation is
Raise/fold/call
I gave myself the appearance of strength should I need to attempt to bluff, I have a sneaky hand if I hit and its still a very moderate pot to bale on.
I am prepared to invest in the pots I plan to play..Im sure poker software would spot this as a leak.. Im sure that makes me a loose player but thats my current thinking.
IDK .. I still don't think it was a bad play. But I bow before you all - I dont consider myself anything more than an occasional player.
For you all it just means you have to widen your range on me :-\
this post comes to mind
Poker is a very context specific game sometimes. Easy games are "ABC" poker, and that's really what that post is referencing. pokerJAH is advocating a mindset of aggression - which is winning poker - when saying Raise/Fold/Call, Fold/Raise/Call. Calling is often the worst option (but not always) due to several things, not the least of which that a call is either you putting money in behind, or not getting more money in when you're ahead. Generally, the most aggressive +EV move is the best (EV means expected value, or "for every dollar I put it, how much is it making me" kinda thing).
When he says play a pair if your stack & opponents are 10x the raise, that's actually advocating calling oddly enough, and is somewhat the crux of this hand discussion. Say you have 22, a lousy pair. If there's a raise to $5, and you both have >$50, it's a call because if you hit a 2, you're getting implied odds (if you hit, you're taking a lot of his money, if not all). If the guy only has $10 behind him, it's not worthwhile really. If he has a lot, you can try to take a large gash of that. Also, if you have 22, and he has AA? You don't want to be putting money in behind like that pre-flop. If you hit huge on the flop? You're getting a lot of his money.
TPTK no good in cash game - I kinda think this is misleading advice. I've played games where it was surprising what the winning hand was strength wise. The better answer is usually "Depends" for anything poker related. If JAH was referring to a specific cash game, he's still likely saying "In this game, TPTK is either going to make you a little bit of money because everyone will fold to your bets, or lose you a lot of money because they have better than that if they're still around".
The bluff advice is pretty solid, and another kind of interesting phenomenon in poker (like the Super strong hands not making you a lot of money). Bad players will beat good players with some frequency due to the fact that they will call down no matter what if they "hit the board". This means a good, aggressive player, who is betting two over cards with a flush draw, or some sort of reason they may have, will get called down by the guy who hit bottom pair with a pretty Ace kicker. A good player will also fold when their odds aren't right for a draw, where a bad player will call for gutshot straights and such only to end up hitting middle pair to suss out the bluff.
Mark
AT is a bitch of a hand for me too. I'm raising with it if I'm going to play it, and if there's a raise in front, I'll consider who the raiser is (those PT stats come in handy here), and consider what I'll do then. UTG is the worst place to get AT IMO.
My questions around your play is more your bet sizing. You tend to min-raise a lot, but not exclusively. I see a lot of people on the min-raise bandwagon these days, but I myself am not a fan. Is this strategy something you've read / discussed with someone, or something you yourself tend towards? Is there reasoning?
Mark
I think this is a leak.
ATo is probably not a hand you want to see flops with, because youre killed on most flops you connect with (and you dont connect with many!).
Flopping the straight with a 3 gapper is pretty rare.
If you do actually get some kind of draw with A10, you are likely already behind to Abetter kicker, Abetterdraw, twopr.
A10o looks a lot better than it plays. I think a lot of low stakes players will play this type of hand...I know I use to, and now I don't give into the temptation. This type of hand falls into a category of what I like to call "middling hands" (I believe Skalansky has a different term)...that ends up costing you a lot of money. You rarely flop the nuts with it, and when you do catch part of it on the flop (ie A 6 2), what do you do now, especially when you are OP? I'm sure others here can explain the "numbers" of why this type of hand is -EV, but I can assure you I fold hands like this much more frequently now and my results have improved because of it.
The coin toss was my strategic device to randomize my play . . . I find it helps.
So now I know where you got the 10x from.
I think you misinterpreted the point of Pokerjahs post that you quoted. He wasnt saying you should 10x all mid small pairs.