For the Record Mark
Good god I'm slow today...
I just realized that you think this wouldn't have happened if we had the death penalty!!! WOW is that ever wrong. Not only does the majority of research show that deterrent don't mean shit, but the dude ended up shooting himself.. hardly someone that likely cares about death penalty.
Mark
How you come to this conclusion, I will never know. I have always stated that those who want to break the law will do so regardless of the punishments in place if that is truly what they want to do. It doesn't matter if it is drinking and driving, speeding going 200km an hour, running drugs. People will have their reasons to break the law. I just think there are really heinous people who life in prison is too easy of punishment for them.
I just think that by not having the ability to carry out a capital offense for a heinous crime is not what our society needs right now.
Our society wants reality tv, gladiator type fighting like the UFC. Why not have an execution station.
Comments
And life imprison does? Your aren't carrying out a capital offense to show others it is wrong per say. Just to say you "If don't care about the life of others, we (society) don't care about your life either.
I also don't think you can prove to a scientific certainty that CP doesn't effect everyone who processes the thought of murder. And why they don't carry it out.
Unless you believe in absolute moral truth, morality changes with every generation that is why prohibition laws were change and we have the right to kill unborn baby we call fetus (to lessen the image of a needle of poison going into the uterus) and still put those behind bars who assist in suicides.
No I haven't seen it. How pleasant do you think life in prison should be anyway?
Matthew 25:40, one of the great parables in the New Testament and one of the scarcest portions of the Bible. Volumes have been written on that phrase by theologians far greater than me. But one of the principles of hermeneutics is to be able to understand the passage in the context it was written as well as the context of the entire scriptures.
You are correct, all life is sacred, born and unborn that’s what I believe the scriptures teach. Man was created in the image of God. Man is not an animal but has intrinsic value and with that has a soul that will exist beyond the earthly shell (our human bodies) we have now.
I also believe that the Bible clearly teaches that man will be sent to an everlasting punishment, and feel the judgment of God one day. So believing in a Capital Punishment for a what society says is a capital crime is not out of the realm of possibility. When someone doesn’t value the life of other human beings why should society value their life?
If one takes the historicity of the New Testament to be true. There was a man named Jesus who claimed to be God, hung on the cross with two criminals. One thief acknowledges He was God and was told he would be remembered in paradise. Jesus accepted the punishment for Himself (death on a cross) and for those He died with, the two criminals society put on crosses with Him. I really don’t see an inconsistency here. Especially from a biblical standpoint. I have been trying to stay away from that point of view here on this forum because I know that people believe the bible is a book of errors, fictions and proven to be wrong. I believe the biblical case for capital punishment to be very compelling.
Understand I don’t think CP is for everyone who commits crime, far from it. I think it could be done on a case by case basis. If this guy (insert any mass killing spree in a school) had somehow lived; I believe in the court process and I would have no problem if a jury of his peers unanimously voted for life imprison. Conversely, I have no problem if they decided in the death penalty as well. I mean if they have no sense of value in the taking of human life aren’t they saying they believe their life has no value? Isn’t that why the majority of these school shooters more often than not takes their own life rather than go to jail?
I don’t think CP fits every case, but I know a few that it does:
1. Anders Behring Breivik, who is serving a 21-year sentence for killing 77 people in a bombing and shooting rampage last year,
2. Paul Kenneth Bernardo, also known as Paul Jason Teale (born 27 August 1964), is a Canadian serial killer and rapist,
3. Clifford Olsen, he has since passed.
4. Russell Williams is a convicted murderer, rapist, and former Colonel in the Canadian Forces.
5. John Wayne Gacy, Jr. was an American serial killer and rapist who sexually assaulted and murdered at least 33 teenage boys and young men between 1972 and 1978. Died in jail.
6. Charles Manson, still serving out his sentence.
7. Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer was an American serial killer and sex offender. Dahmer murdered 17 men and boys between 1978 and 1991. Killed by inmates.
8. Saul Betesh and Robert Wayne killers of Emanuel Jaques (1965 – 1977) was a shoeshine boy in Toronto, Ontario.
9. Susan Leigh Vaughan Smith is an American woman sentenced to life in prison for murdering her 5 children
10. The murder of six year beauty contestant JonBenét Ramsey deserves the death penalty.
I could go on but I think you get my point of who would be in that targeted group to be considered for CP.
no. this is a false argument. those that don't commit suicide obviously still value their lives, and it could be argued that those that do commit suicide still valued their lives (or parts of it at least) but simply felt that they couldn't cope anymore for whatever reason. if they truly didn't value their life or other's lives then they wouldn't have cared to kill anyone but themselves. they obviously killed others because they felt that life has value and they wanted to take that value away. why even put forth the effort otherwise?
short answer is that society should be living up to the highest moral standards in order for that society to be deemed 'good'. shouldn't our overall society strive to live up to that type of standard? if not, how are its citizens expected to do so? obviously, it's not easy at all, but it should be our goal purely for ourselves otherwise we're just selling ourselves short.
and btw, i'd love to hear the argument that the bible supports capital punishment. that would definitely be an interesting read. you briefly mention it (not sure why we have to assume the new testament is 'true' though - can't it just be a metaphor and still hold significance?).
not quite sure how this supports the death penalty. the thieves repent in the face of their deaths so jesus forgives them and therefore they will 'be remembered in paradise'. doesn't necessarily say they're going there even but i think we're supposed to assume they are. iirc, the thieves also show that they believe He is god by refusing to have their crosses stand the same way. one goes upside down and the other makes an X shape i believe. this doesn't suggest anywhere that Jesus was like 'yeah man, death penalty FTW.' at least if it does i don't get how. i always read that story about the forgiveness of sins and all that stuff (you know, you can be a serial killer/douche bag asshole your whole life but as long as you truly repent on your death bed you're good to go! thanks jesus!)
We are not civilized enough as a race to do what is correct to harm those who actually should be, there is no consequence to blowing things up or killing a bunch of people, do I agree they should be put to death.....probably only based on nothing better, prison sucks, but you can treat people worse...
Anyone who commits suicide really probably should not have had their life in the first place THATS WHY ITS FREE!
Brent you asked how I could get to that conclusion? You said in the CT shooting thread that I should admit we need to reinstate the death penalty, which btw, still no. So, tragic incident + suggestion for death penalty, I think it's a pretty rational conclusion to draw that you're suggesting things would be different if death penalty was an option.
However, it seems that wasn't the case, which then means your motivation for posting that was.... what exactly? To poke at me? To soapbox your opinions? To just start shit? I'm cool with any of those.
On this thread (which btw, I do love being singled out in the title), there are several things that popped into my mind while reading.
A: We really think highly of ourselves as a species. We have traits and abilities unique to others in the animal kingdom, but we are still part of it. We are animals.
B: People go to prison ideally for rehabilitation. Yes, there is a punitive aspect, but our ideology is to attempt to help prisoners become functioning members of society once more. So when you question "how pleasant do you think prison life should be" and then disdainfully mention that society likes to entertain itself with UFC and such, it's embarrassingly hypocritical. Punitive jail measures are vengeful and come from a place of anger and vengeance. I'm cool if you want to punish and admit that, but myself, it seems unproductive and would rather go rehab... which means jails that are more nurturing and educational than punishing and vindictive.
C: Most of the people that end up doing something terrible have significant mental health issues. Mental health is a medical condition, and these people need help, and more importantly educated people around them. If we're going to call it a disease, then we need to treat it as such. It remind me of when Martin Sheen was being interviewed a little while ago about his kid Charlie being all "winning". The interviewer asked him if it was difficult to still care and support his kid when he was acting like that, Martin pointed out that Charlie had mental health issues at that point, and if it is a disease, he needs help and support. If Charlie had cancer, that question wouldn't be asked.
Now I'm not trying to say that these people should be pitied, and I'm not trying to lessen or explain the horror they orchestrated. I'm trying to say that arguing to kill these people isn't an answer. It solves nothing, is inefficient and costly, and causes more problems than it prevents. Once again the only argument then that you can really legitimately put forth is that you want revenge for the hurt that person caused. It's not a great reason, but it's the only one that's true and not ignorant.
Mark
Being put to death seems to be the right answer, your life already means nothing to the person probably and having that taken from them is not enough.
Its possible I am too harsh on these people but again maybe not! What I would suggest is probably inhumane and is not quite for open forum discussion, but no the answer is not the death penalty.
Mark
But yes guns have their place, the people who use them know and installing more gun control would NOT bother these people.
The DOI is 200 years old, bare arms blah blah....come on, have a look around is all I am saying.
well put mark.
i would like to say though, if i ever had a kid (oh god let's hope not) and someone shot (or killed/raped/tortured) my kid, i'd be going to jail for a long time if i ever managed to catch the guy.>:D
But would you still kill the guy and accept a punishment of death if it was given if the country had CP?
Mark,
Punishment is a result of breaking the laws society deems as an acceptable way to live - rehabilitation can be a result of said punishment. Some punishments can be taken care monetarily while others require a lost of freedom.
Sentences very in length and if an individual is sentence to 20 years for a crime and rehabilitated after 4 years should he get out? I don't think so. Or 5 years and rehabilitated after 6 months should he have his freedoms restored or continue serving his sentence? There is a minimal sentence people serve for a crime regardless of how quickly they are rehabilitated. In the case of mental illness, if drugs and therapy heal the person, why keep them in jail? We keep them in jail as a punishment for a period of time deemed acceptable by the judicial system to remind them what they did was wrong and to keep them from harming others.
Agreed . . . though he forgot to mention "What happens in the case of a mistake?"
YES. ainec . . .
And maybe I can agree with that, you might be right, I'd have to think about it more.
True enough, but a those in my list are not Millgaard are they?
Answers bolded.
<edit> I didn't internet well, that photo says "With more of this" (referring to the spanking) there'd be less of this (referring to the gangstas)
Mark
Too cliche...
Mark
Anyone CP from my list wouldn't be a mistake now would it. You are talking about cases from the extreme. I could be up hundreds of cases, that are no doubter.
Once again... as Milo said, I didn't mention it. And no, I wouldn't kill any of those people on your list either.
Mark
I am not saying you would rather we wouldn't find ourselves in a Milgaard situation.
As far as you know, those ten people for sure are guilty (note, AS FAR AS YOU KNOW). How many people currently on death row in North America? I did a google, and have no way of knowing if this is a credible site, but it claims 3,170. Now, according to Amnesty International (which I'd argue most non tinfoil hat crowd would agree is a fairly legit site), 130 people have been released from death row after being proven innocent since 1973. 40 years, 130 people, about 3-4 people a year.
According to the ACLU website:
"A study by Columbia University professor James Liebman examined thousands of capital sentences that had been reviewed by courts in 34 states from 1973 to 1995. ""An astonishing 82 percent of death row inmates did not deserve to receive the death penalty,"" he said in his conclusion. ""One in twenty death row inmates is later found not guilty.""
So, some math, 3-4 people per year are proven to be innocent despite serving jail time (they mention one guy that was tried and convicted TWICE of the same murder). Now, if that study from ACLU is accurate, that means 5% of all convicted, death row murderers are NOT RESPONSIBLE for what they are about to die for. Further, if the figure of 3,170 people is correct, this would suggest that about 158 people are currently innocent of their particular crime and facing death.
158 people are going to die.
For no reason other than ignorance and the perception of righteous anger. All nicely state sanctioned, government approved, and completely unnecessary.
Further, many of the revealed innocent persons have been in the last 10-15 years in particular, due to the advent of DNA testing. To put that in simpler, more applicable ways, "We have a better tool and understanding to make better decisions now". Cavemen thought fire was magic and thunder was angry gods. Middle ages people thought the mentally ill had the devil in them and red hair signified a witch. 20th century we thought black people should be made to serve, and use lesser amenities than us god-blessed Caucasians.
We learn, we improve, and we make things better. We are better now than we have been in the past. But stubbornly and wantonly refusing to believe the clear evidence, demanding actions that have clearly been proven harmful and ineffective just because you want to is child's logic.
There comes a point where it stops being an opinion. Denying it becomes an act of foolishness and cruelty. I don't want to take cheap shots on this, I don't want this to be me vs. everyone who disagrees because then the message is lost and it becomes "fuck that Mark guy". I say I'm right on this, because the best measure we have, the evidence that is presented to us all, says so. This wasn't my idea, it's not my suggestion, it is how it is. Anyone that disagrees really likes the Emperor's new clothes.
Mark
Man Milo... we might just start to get along
Mark