Bonehead move?
I'll try and set the stage as best I can.
Final four of a $20+2 sng on stars, myself and 3 others, One guy was just weak, limped in to almost every hand no matter what he had. He got queens 3x (I think, 2 for sure though) and had limped into every pot he played. Call him "limper-dude". He would also call to river often with second pair no kicker, but tended to respect preflop raises.
Second guy was not standing out to me, fairly normal player. I think he was not great but not terrible. Call him "ABC."
Third guy was a stud, and handsome. Great player. Call him me.
4th guy was again pretty bad based on some bad plays I had seen him make. Re-raising preflop into strong raised pots with not great holdings...but not overly loose or anything. Call him "erratic"
So, final 4, I had just gone from top stack to short stack after losing a lot of my stack to limper-dude's pocket queens, as he called my betting down to the river I had top pair, but it was 10's with ace kicker). I'm pointing this out for a reason as it might influence the answer to how stupid my play was here. We were all pretty equal, erratic who was chip leader at about 4800, followed by the other two about the same (3000 or so) and me at about 1700. It was 100/200 blinds, limper-dude and ABC limped in to me in the SB holding A7 os. Erratic was in the BB.
You probably can guess my play as I am posting for a reason. I pushed, trying to steal the pot pre-flop. Erratic i nthe BB called and the others folded. He flipped over 55. I didn;t improve and was gone, literally 4 minutes after being the chip leader.
I think a decent player would not have called here, but I think he had comfort in his stack size. How bad was my play? I think the call was much worse, however I find myself getting maybe too aggressive in late stages these days. I thought my stack was big enough for this move to work, as it wouldn't have been something I would have done with under 1000 in chips.
Alot depends on the read of the players I know, but with what you know from my post, what do you think?
Final four of a $20+2 sng on stars, myself and 3 others, One guy was just weak, limped in to almost every hand no matter what he had. He got queens 3x (I think, 2 for sure though) and had limped into every pot he played. Call him "limper-dude". He would also call to river often with second pair no kicker, but tended to respect preflop raises.
Second guy was not standing out to me, fairly normal player. I think he was not great but not terrible. Call him "ABC."
Third guy was a stud, and handsome. Great player. Call him me.
4th guy was again pretty bad based on some bad plays I had seen him make. Re-raising preflop into strong raised pots with not great holdings...but not overly loose or anything. Call him "erratic"
So, final 4, I had just gone from top stack to short stack after losing a lot of my stack to limper-dude's pocket queens, as he called my betting down to the river I had top pair, but it was 10's with ace kicker). I'm pointing this out for a reason as it might influence the answer to how stupid my play was here. We were all pretty equal, erratic who was chip leader at about 4800, followed by the other two about the same (3000 or so) and me at about 1700. It was 100/200 blinds, limper-dude and ABC limped in to me in the SB holding A7 os. Erratic was in the BB.
You probably can guess my play as I am posting for a reason. I pushed, trying to steal the pot pre-flop. Erratic i nthe BB called and the others folded. He flipped over 55. I didn;t improve and was gone, literally 4 minutes after being the chip leader.
I think a decent player would not have called here, but I think he had comfort in his stack size. How bad was my play? I think the call was much worse, however I find myself getting maybe too aggressive in late stages these days. I thought my stack was big enough for this move to work, as it wouldn't have been something I would have done with under 1000 in chips.
Alot depends on the read of the players I know, but with what you know from my post, what do you think?
Comments
Of course he's going to call you with 55. He's only dead against a bigger pocket or else he's a big stack taking a coin flip to knock you out. I'd make the call and I like to consider myself a decent player.
I'd be more scared of ABC limping preflop after someone else already had..
Sounds like your bigger problem was overplaying a weak top pair hand out of position with a big chip lead.
I hate A7 in the spot I had it there. How would you play it? Limp in I assume. Do you play it as the best hand if an ace hits the flop? A feeler bet on the flop almost commits me to the hand. I was, in my mind anyways, at a delicate level of chips where any meaningful raise comes close to committing me to the hand anyways.
You can't limp with it.. It's either all-in or fold preflop. You'll be pot committed anyway so you may as well use your chips to scare people preflop.. I was thinking about it and was originally going to say that I think you can wait for a better hand than A7 to push.. but I dont know about that... (Thats why I didn't comment on your hand).
I think the problem with the hand is that you are going to get nothing better than a coin flip out of it, if not flat out domination.. Also, playing that hand and losing busts you out, preventing you from picking up a bigger hand down the line.. If you fold A7 now and then pick it up 10 hands down the line it's less of a question to push. You are just on the borderline of desperation.
As an aside, trying to steal after two limpers isn't going to work in the long run.. The chances are too high someone has a hand they want to showdown..
I disagree. Limping here leaves you with 1,500 (or 7.5 BB) and a pot of $400. You are far from pot committed and can probably win a descent pot if an Ace hits. Most players will not give credit for an Ace when the SB limps. I'm not a fan of pushing preflop here. The best you can hope for is a coin flip but many times you will be dominated when called. So I would call and take a flop as pushing is usually going to be winning a small pot or losing a big pot (busting out).
How can you possibly justify spending 150 chips to try and hit a 3 outer <at best> into 4 players? When that ace flops, the guy with KQ is going to FOLD and you are only going to win a small pot with terrible odds or lose a big one cuz you let the world into the hand.
The 7-1 pot odds?
ScottyZ
First, it's $100 in chips. Second of all pushing preflop will result in being called by a hand like KQ. Third of all if an Ace hits it is very unlikely to be respected by your opponents since they will often expect you to push any Ace very hard. This play works and works well. Pot odds say it's good, implied odds say it's better, and pushing preflop will be negative EV since you will be called by marginal hands that have you dominated.
Plus any hand that beats you if an Ace hits calls your all-in preflop anyway.
Not sure how you can disagree here.
I honestly lead towards just calling and still playing any ace on the flop very carefully.and not getting to attched to the pot.
This is just a spot where the dynamics of a SNG payout should overtake other considerations. My requirements for pushing all-in pre-flop late in a SNG almost always always involve avoiding limpers. Limpers once they've voluntarily invested money and are getting the free money from the blinds also, are almost priced into calling, or at least they are in their minds
It's 100 to limp into a pot of 700 isn't it? (2 limpers + BB + SB, and possibly antes?) Leaving 1500 to push into a pot of 800. I'm still undecided on which play I like better. I don't mind the push (you actually got lucky by what called you though). Are the blinds going up soon? If so, I'd likely push. What are the payouts? If blinds aren't going up immediately, I may be tempted to limp and then fold if I don't improve (hoping the other stacks will beat themselves up). Ideally I'd prefer to wait for a better hand, or at least push without limpers already in the pot...
With exactly A7o, I'd certainly be at least limping in. So is it worth a raise? It's a pretty close decision I think.
Assuming I did want to raise, I'd certainly push all-in. The pot is big enough that I'd be happy to simply take it down now with no fuss. A standard raise would probably be to at least 800 anyway after the 2 limpers. I'd probably make it 1,000 to go in a standard raising scenario.
Both raising (all-in) and limping-in seem like reasonable plays to me.
EDIT: I forgot to mention that I'd probably limp in with the A7 myself most of the time. But I could see myself pushing in sometimes too.
As for the 55 on the BB, I don't think I'd call here myself, though again it's fairly close. For the reasons BBC Z mentioned earlier, I think calling with the 55 is reasonable too.
I probably wouldn't call here since I have the one limper who could have pretty much anything left to act behind me. This player also seems like a must see the flop/calling station type. The player has been observed both seeing a lot of flops, and just calling (?) all the way, including pre-flop, with an overpair of Queens. Of course, I'm not automatoically putting this player on Queens here---I'm putting him on having an inhuman love of calling.
I'm not so much worried about the ABC player, since an ABC player limping-in means "I have a speculative hand that I'd like to see the flop with cheaply". He will probably fold.
I disagree that "a decent player would not call [with the 55]". I think it's a reasonable play, even though I'd personally lean towards folding it.
ScottyZ
Damn. I lost the race to get my chips in the pot on this one...twice.
Top 3 pay.
You are right, when he called rather quickly, I was not happy, but was when I saw it was at least only 55.
Scotti, I agree on the ABC, that was my thought on him as well. Didn't see him slow-playing a big hand in this spot.
As far as the 55 call, I guess I can see the point that this isn't as bad a call as I first thought. I think for more of his chips it would be though. He wasn't ruined if he ran up against an overpair.
If betting my top pair against a calling station earlier is poor, then I think calling with 55 against a tight player (anyone paying attention would see me as tight) was worse.
For example, $20 buy-in $5 bounties, No-Limit Hold'em Live tourney
Everyone folds to me in the SB. BB is an aggressive player who pushes hard with what he thinks are big hands or when he THINKS he's ahead. We both have deep stacks but I have him covered.
So I'm in the SB with Axo (I actually think it was a 7 may have been a nine). BB checks we see the flop. AKx. I check. BB then pushes, I figure him for the kiing but I played the hand for this way for this result and call. He flips over K8 and I bust him out.
This is a nice trap play with many exit points. That's my only point here. Pushing isn't terrible but I really lean towards limping here.
I dont like your logic for the limp because there aren't very many flops that will give you the confidence to play to the river, so it feels like a needless bleed of chips to me. It seems to me that you are giving up the big decision preflop for an even tougher one on the flop.
Good luck on finding those opponents that pay attention. They seem to be a rare breed indeed.
I think every time someone posts an example of Ace rag's power post flop, they should post an equivalent number of hands where they called away all their chips when being dominated by AQ. I don't like your inferrence that because you won with it once you'll win again.
I think you hit the point on the head. I've been running well okay in SNG last few days and it's been by avoiding A-rag hands. The one time i bubbled was because of the exact same situation. A8s betting into the BB who called my raised with AQ. flop had an Ace but was really co-ordinated and draw heavy. I'm betting to protect, he's calling me down and then mini bets the river ... and i'm nearly toast.
Those hands are just trouble and when down near the money, i think are better to avoid.
Basically, limp into the flop then push regardless of what comes on the flop, that way, you're getting some fold equity out of the hand. Admittingly, this is a worse play to make with more people in the pot due to implicit collusion but it still may work here.
For example, while the BB didn't have much of a problem calling you and accepting the coin flip situation, it would have been a harder call for him if you limped in and the flop came something like KJ7.
On as aside, I'm becomming less and less of a fan of putting in my last chips, as a small stack, with a weak ace. Chances are, the hands that will call you are hands that will have you dominated (better Aces, pocket pairs). I'm becomming more of a fan of pushind medium suited connectors or one gappers, over a weak ace because the chances that my cards are live are better.
I agree my hand I posted is a little misleading but I was trying to get across the point of limping with an A in the blinds to reap some great rewards of the implied odds attached. There are obviously many considerations to take into account but in the situation originally posted I like limping to the flop and hitting the eject button if an ace doesn't hit. $1,500 is much better than zero. In this situaiton and most others if you are called you are going to be at best a coinflip when you don't need to be.
Answer me one question. What flop are you hoping to see when you limp? When that ace hits, the only people dancing with you to the river have you beat because you let the weaker hands off the hook on the flop. Seems like limping gives us all the of benfits of losing chips with none of the rewards when we do spike that ace. Limp and kiss that 100 goodbye.. 100 which could be used down the line to keep your head above water and buy time for the others to knock each other out.
Edit: Lets also not forget that we're going to have to bet at the pot when the ace does hit, which is more risk if someone comes over the top on the flop.
Thats why I don't like your example. I can show you some great hands where 72o tripled up, but it doesnt mean it's a long term winning play. And since when does A7o have any implied odds? There's no bonus for a 7 card straight..
I am looking for a flop that is Ace high and not three suited (would also consider an AKQ flop scary as J10 is a serious possiblitiy). If it the flop hits I'm pushing...not looking to dance. An $800 pot is gravy plus you have the advantage of knowing that "limper-dude" will pay you off with a second best hand. I think you can also assume a preflop raise from either of the other two with any Ace bigger than yours.
There is no reason to bet a missed flop in this situation. You have no position whatsoever. I'm pushing if I hit and check folding if I miss.
Folding is an option but your getting 7-1 to call. $100 is going to kill you here. I can't see folding with the stack size and pot odds in this situation. I'm not in a push or fold mode yet.
I put myself in the BB position for a minute.
1. one limper in the SB, I look at 55. Automatic 3 to 4 times the BB raise! Do I want to see a flop. NO. Being a bigger stack, I might push the SB all in too. This depends on the way the SB is playing. If you just called in the SB and he pushed all in, all of a sudden your 7 kick does not look so good.
2. SB has just gone from chip leader to 4th within minutes. He pushes all in in the SB. I really have to put him on a steal. Look down a 55. CALL
That being said, I fold A7off in the SB.
everyone and there mothers is partially invested in this pot, reducing your chance of winning it pre-flop to quite slim. They'll also see the overlay of chips in the pot and will possibly call with that alone, they may not think it through exactly like that but the resulting action is the same.
If you get called your facing a coinflip against any low pair, and are in bad shape against any big ace or pair 77 or over ... which are the most likely things to call you.
I really think i look at a pot where the other three players are going to see a flop together to be a blessing. The chances of one of them busting or crippling themselves is just so high in scenarios like that, especially because with all the limping there is a decent pot in the middle.
You almost got me.. I was almost going to talk about pot odds in NL but you have forgotton the key to the entire equation. Your entire stack is at risk. When you play this hand and say 'Oh, 100 for a pot of 800 I've got odds' think of it as 'oh, my 1500 stack at risk for a pot of 800'. Doesn't sound so great anymore, does it? Risk 1500 and your tourney on the prayer that your 7 to 1 flop (one that includes an ace) hits AND its able to hold up against 3 players that saw the flop with you. Unless they are brain dead, if they dont hold the ace theres no action but players that dominate you will be more than happy to call.
First of all, you didn't even read the section you quoted. I said that WHEN YOU SPIKE THE ACE you need to bet.
Second of all, if you are going to push when you hit you've just put yourself in an awesomely bad situation. The only hands that call are ones that have you dominated. Whys that? You let all the crappier hands see a cheap flop, miss and fold.
I can see justification for moving all-in and I can see justification for folding, but theres no way limping and praying for a miracle flop is a winner.
Folding is an option but I really don't think I have it in me. Rasing all-in seems to carry more risk than limping. I think you have to fold or limp...but I'm stubborn and I'm sticking with limping.
PS. BBC if you had said that you HAD to bet if the flop DOESN'T hit then I was right. Sorry for misreading...must be the glare on my screen...LoL!
Does doubling up increase your chances of coming in first ... well by the nature of how SNG play i think it does marginally. Does it increase your chance of making the money, significantly. Does the risk take you entirely out of the tourney, quite possibly.
While i don't advise playing scared on the bubble, i think in this scenario you really have to look at it, is doubling up really that important. I'm glad to see at least that we've narrowed the options down to limp or fold.
We haven't. Pushing is still an option ... I just don't like it personally.
As far as limping vs. folding I think that BBC is underestimating the implied odds of doubling or winning a big pot. I think it is very likely to happen if we hit the flop.
This is exactly the agruement...risk vs reward. Folding = zero risk (this hand) but the reward of not losing any chips other than the SB (100).
Limping is more complicated but works something like this Limping = another $100 chips. Missing the flop entirely and folding = $100 less than if we folded preflop. Hitting the flop = most or all of chips getting into the middle but risk is busting to better hand. So how much do we value the double up? I think it is quite valuable as your stack goes from 8BB (compared to folding preflop) to 19 BB. 19BB is very playable stack. 8BB is getting close to trouble but not desparate. One factor we haven't discussed much is the likelyhood of another player busting before we get into push mode (the next time you have to pay the blinds). I think it is unlikely since they all have comfortable stacks and will probably be trying to blind you out.