Poker boggles me :(

Unknown

I can't understand why its correct to fold here, or why its correct to shove

No Limit Holdem Tournament
PokerStars
9 Players
$7.34+$0.66

Stacks:
UTG 3bongs (5,075) 20bb
UTG+1 jlzy (4,100) 16bb
MP1 Joda (2,979) 12bb
MP2 Andrew23122 (2,260) 9bb
MP3 HannaSss (2,485) 10bb
CO karolikongen (1,791) 7bb
BTN weflow (758) 3bb
SB -The Don888- (2,490) 10bb
BB thanosstav (1,942) 8bb

Blinds: 125/250 Ante 25

Pre-Flop: (600, 9 players) jasper is MP1: Tc8c
2 folds, Joda raises to 500, 6 folds

Final Pot: 850

Joda wins 1,100 (net +575)

Unknown

lol

That's unreal

Unknown

12 beibs why are u even opening shouldn't we be ripping?

Can't really r/f here with effective stacks..

Unknown

costanza wrote: »

12 beibs why are u even opening shouldn't we be ripping?

Can't really r/f here with effective stacks..

but what if the entire table goes all behind you. Your screwed...but I can still fold

Unknown

U think u have fold equity to a shove behind u?

Orly.jpg

Unknown

Joda B, Joda B!

Would this be a good spot for a limp???:-\:arghh:

Unknown

costanza wrote: »

Joda B, Joda B!

Would this be a good spot for a limp???:-\:arghh:

nope, you'll encourage 5 limpers and two shovers behind!

costanza wrote: »

U think u have fold equity to a shove behind u?

Orly.jpg

thats not fold equity its better to say "If a nitty player or two players shove I can still fold"

Unknown

lol

K

(rock)

trigs

personally, i'd either push or fold here. i don't know if i like the min bet/fold. is this a turbo because that may influence my push/fold a bit - i.e. more push than fold.

i don't mind getting it in with a hand like T8s but some of the stacks behind you should be committed with ATC. i'm assuming that's why you went for the min bet and possible fold to multiple pushes? if that's the case though, i'd probably just fold.

Unknown

trigs wrote: »

personally, i'd either push or fold here. i don't know if i like the min bet/fold. is this a turbo because that may influence my push/fold a bit - i.e. more push than fold.

i don't mind getting it in with a hand like T8s but some of the stacks behind you should be committed with ATC. i'm assuming that's why you went for the min bet and possible fold to multiple pushes? if that's the case though, i'd probably just fold.

I agree somewhat, and everyone surely agrees with you completely. However whether someone 'should' be committed is not as relevant as their actual calling/shoving ranges.

As we can see here, not a single player at the table is on atc


I guess my question is what looks stronger? Min raise or push?

Hobbes

min raise is fine, but there are only 2 stacks that you are not calling. Be prepared to call the rest of them.

If every one goes all in, you shout "I have odds", click call and close your eyes.

Hobbes

darbday wrote: »

I guess my question is what looks stronger? Min raise or push?

A raise to 2800 looks stronger than both.

trigs

darbday wrote: »

I agree somewhat, and everyone surely agrees with you completely. However whether someone 'should' be committed is not as relevant as their actual calling/shoving ranges.

As we can see here, not a single player at the table is on atc


I guess my question is what looks stronger? Min raise or push?

it's true that their actual ranges are more important. that's obviously info/reads you have on those villains though.

as to which is stronger? i really don't know. i've used both techniques in similar situations depending on villains to act behind and our history together. if i've been pushing a lot i'll probably continue to push with big hands as well since they're more likely to not believe me. if i've been min raising and showing down big hands then i might want to push a few big hands.

i guess i'm trying to say that either play can work depending on villain reads. however, 12BBs in a turbo is probably not a spot i'd attempt it. i'd be push/fold here. although, i'm no turbo expert by any means.

Richard~

min raise folding 12 BB's is not good 90% of the time. Minraising 108 at a table that won't flat you doesn't seem good either. If you're gonna do this, try some blockers imo. The merit for picking this hand is that you're in slightly better shape when you have to call but this feels like a really easy fold to me since raisefolding seems so bad

Unknown

Hobbes wrote: »

min raise is fine, but there are only 2 stacks that you are not calling. Be prepared to call the rest of them.

If every one goes all in, you shout "I have odds", click call and close your eyes.

ok maybe im not crazy then...those are my thoughts pretty much

Hobbes wrote: »

A raise to 2800 looks stronger than both.

ya my thoughts too in this thread but zero regs agree with me.

Richard~ wrote: »

min raise folding 12 BB's is not good 90% of the time. Minraising 108 at a table that won't flat you doesn't seem good either. If you're gonna do this, try some blockers imo. The merit for picking this hand is that you're in slightly better shape when you have to call but this feels like a really easy fold to me since raisefolding seems so bad

My thoughts are 1 its part of the non exploitable jam range, and since people will call ultra tight compared to what they should its a plus ev ship.

2ndly if i min raise raise, each player needs to be flatting or shoving more than 13% on average to make this a -ev min raise, and I don't think thats true at all.

Plus the most likely scenario is a race with the 3 bbs stack and good pot odds.


Edit: also yes blockers equals goodz!!!

Richard~

interesting, I mean I don't hate jamming if you're sure that's fine by icm, but what bothers me is that I never really want to raisefold this stack

Unknown

Richard~ wrote: »

interesting, I mean I don't hate jamming if you're sure that's fine by icm, but what bothers me is that I never really want to raisefold this stack

yes. now new age poker will tell you not to worry about what stack we are folding but rather to look at the pot odd vs villains reshove range and decide. Our real consideration will be balance and making sure good regs aren't 3bet bluffing us with an extended range. Here though, no on is capable of it.

T8s will be marginally +ev and is pretty much the bottom of my range here, i might even fold some combos but not clubs.

I'm not sure I'm right, but this is why i have issues with this game.

RAM_Eh

I play alot of these turbos.

everone is short stacked even the 20BB who is the chip leader.

I like the min bet as this is the norm, you are only getting 3bet ripped by:

1: made hands - your fucked

2: Strong Aces - you have outs.

Just the way these are played now adays.

Richard~

you're not wrong but you still need to consider the value and utility of your stack, if you have to fold this after raising you won't be able to reship light profitably anymore

Unknown

pushing > folding > min raising here tho

im having a tough time being convinced min raising here is a good (+EV) play

RAM_Eh

costanza wrote: »

pushing > folding > min raising here tho

im having a tough time being convinced min raising here is a good (+EV) play

min raising gives the non believers room to push over the top. If you have a hand its very +EV!

your being agressive, but letting them make the mistakes

Unknown

Dead Money wrote: »

min raising gives the non believers room to push over the top. If you have a hand its very +EV!

your being agressive, but letting them make the mistakes

no idea what the context of this post is lol

Unknown

i talked about this hand in this vid for those interested in understanding my thoughts here:

http://www.pokerforum.ca/f53/joda-vid-180-hh-review-29058/#post329190

Richard~ wrote: »

you're not wrong but you still need to consider the value and utility of your stack, if you have to fold this after raising you won't be able to reship light profitably anymore

I would like to know where you learned to use the word utility in this sense.

Anyways thats the age old argument for sure and I'm not convinced but I have to study mtt stacks more to be sure. I re watched assanatos vids and wasn't convinced anymore. I can't argue it yet, but I will point out that chances are I will have more chips at the end of this hand than less, and thats what I'm thinking about in regards to our stack size vs tools.