Something I Thought Of...
I watch a lot of poker on television. I am sure that about 110% of this forum has at one time or another watched poker on television. Now, I'am of the belief that Poker on T.V. is in it's infant stages. Instead of an hour long program, I predict that the general public and tv poker fans will be able to sit and watch 4-5 hour long program such as golf,basketball or football.
Now, one thing that I have noticed that with the "poker" boom, (I am a poker boomer) that their isn't alot of friendliness from pros towards amatuer players that are at their table in their tournament. I mean it's well known that a lot of pro's don't consider Chris Moneymaker a "pro", that he just got lucky. Well, I'd disagree about Moneymaker's luck factor. You need to know a little bit to outlast a coluding sateallite and out last more than a thousand people at WSOP main event, and then place second in a WPT event, but thats my rookie opinion, and far be it, an irrelvant one.
"Amatuer", the word itself comes from a latin word, which I forget now, but it means to Love.
C
hris Moneymaker (for example) or Myself or any of you who love the game, strive for excellence. Nobody sets out on a journey or sport and says "I want to finish second, or do okay", you want to play the best you can play and to all of your abilities. Now I know very little about the game of poker, infact I can barely break even at .50/$1 online table, and actually finished -$5.50 this week after a horrible start. But one thing that I am proud of myself is that I never got in a snit about the cards I was delt, or went on a huge ass tilt and threw money away out of position. I love the game of poker. I haven't even played a year yet and I can tell that this is quickly becoming a passion of mine. In fact it, poker is passion.
I think some pro's have their heads in the sand about so called Amatuers. These Amatuers can flat out play. A lot of you on this forum who are "considered" Amatuer have game. I think people like Phil Hellmuth have all the talent in the world, Annie Duke etc etc really do have an extrodinary amount of Talent when it comes to the game of poker and what they can do, however if they have a head full of shit when it comes to Amatuer players, I believe that all the Talent in the world won't help them when it comes to sitting at a final table with a few amatuers, that eventually get the pros off their game and take their stacks, because they go on tilt and can't stand the fact that an Amatuer has acheived so much succuess so quickly or for whatever reason that it rubs them wrong.
I guess what I am saying is this, you have to love what you do. If you can give what you do an honest effort, whether it's myself grinding at $.50/1 or T.J.Cloutier grinding it out at a $2000/$4000 game at the Bellagio, you have to love it, and you have to want it. Big difference between wanting it, and really wanting something.
I want to become a great limit poker player,. and hopefully with the help of reading materials written by great players and people who have embraced the poker boom and hours of experince, loosing and winning I'll someday acheive a decent level of play.
Just wanted to say, that it's forum's like this one that are helping to grow the game of poker, and will overtime sustain the populairty of the game and bring "newbies" into "pro" tables.
P.
Now, one thing that I have noticed that with the "poker" boom, (I am a poker boomer) that their isn't alot of friendliness from pros towards amatuer players that are at their table in their tournament. I mean it's well known that a lot of pro's don't consider Chris Moneymaker a "pro", that he just got lucky. Well, I'd disagree about Moneymaker's luck factor. You need to know a little bit to outlast a coluding sateallite and out last more than a thousand people at WSOP main event, and then place second in a WPT event, but thats my rookie opinion, and far be it, an irrelvant one.
"Amatuer", the word itself comes from a latin word, which I forget now, but it means to Love.
C
hris Moneymaker (for example) or Myself or any of you who love the game, strive for excellence. Nobody sets out on a journey or sport and says "I want to finish second, or do okay", you want to play the best you can play and to all of your abilities. Now I know very little about the game of poker, infact I can barely break even at .50/$1 online table, and actually finished -$5.50 this week after a horrible start. But one thing that I am proud of myself is that I never got in a snit about the cards I was delt, or went on a huge ass tilt and threw money away out of position. I love the game of poker. I haven't even played a year yet and I can tell that this is quickly becoming a passion of mine. In fact it, poker is passion.
I think some pro's have their heads in the sand about so called Amatuers. These Amatuers can flat out play. A lot of you on this forum who are "considered" Amatuer have game. I think people like Phil Hellmuth have all the talent in the world, Annie Duke etc etc really do have an extrodinary amount of Talent when it comes to the game of poker and what they can do, however if they have a head full of shit when it comes to Amatuer players, I believe that all the Talent in the world won't help them when it comes to sitting at a final table with a few amatuers, that eventually get the pros off their game and take their stacks, because they go on tilt and can't stand the fact that an Amatuer has acheived so much succuess so quickly or for whatever reason that it rubs them wrong.
I guess what I am saying is this, you have to love what you do. If you can give what you do an honest effort, whether it's myself grinding at $.50/1 or T.J.Cloutier grinding it out at a $2000/$4000 game at the Bellagio, you have to love it, and you have to want it. Big difference between wanting it, and really wanting something.
I want to become a great limit poker player,. and hopefully with the help of reading materials written by great players and people who have embraced the poker boom and hours of experince, loosing and winning I'll someday acheive a decent level of play.
Just wanted to say, that it's forum's like this one that are helping to grow the game of poker, and will overtime sustain the populairty of the game and bring "newbies" into "pro" tables.
P.
Comments
You mentioned that you play .5/1 at Stars. See you at the table some time.
Cheers
Who hasn't dreamt of playing this game for a living and being millioniars by doing one thing you truly enjoy??? Beats the hell out of working in a factory 40+ hrs a week for minimum wage. Don't want to make it sound like the pros have it easy, because I can only imagine how tough it must be to earn a decent living on this kind of high wire act...one day you're up....next day you're down...down again....hell this is their JOBS, they have bills to pay too. What if they can't get out of a bad streak in time?? Must be nerve wrecking to say the least.
Now the game is being flooded with participants...some think they have what it takes...some will win...most will probably lose....and everyone of us has an eye on making it to the final WPT table and winning it big.
I'm not sure if it's arrogance pros show toward the newly inducted. I think it could be FEAR!! More competition for them to worry about. As far as calling Moneymaker lucky, well, maybe abit of luck had a lot to do with it, but isn't that part of the game too?? One things for sure, there's alot of money out there to be had...I just want a piece of it. Doubt I will ever make it anywhere near the WPT calibre of play, but who knows, maybe I will get lucky.
I have been a fan of this stupid game for better than 12 years now. I have also played chess for most of my life. I mention this because of a conversation I had at my office this past week. I am sure this will all wrap up cleanly in the end somehow, bare with me.
We got a new QA guy in the office on Tuesday. I was baby sitting him while they were setting up his security pass and computer stuff and we got to talking about poker. He said he likes watching the pros on TV and I said something to the effect of, "most people are unable to appreciate what they see these guys do". We then got into a discussion (short of an argument, but not by much) of what makes a pro a pro.
I brought up chess as a comparison to poker. The skills at the top are the same. I believe the necessary skill to be any kind of success is actually pattern recognition, memory development and a deep understanding of game theory. I won't get into the mathematics of it, but game theory is the branch of math that studies what strategies will produce what outcomes in situations involving 2 or more people (I got an undergrad degree in this stuff, which shows my geekiness).
I have actually played with some of the big name pros and their legendary skill of reading people and 'knowing what you had' is basically them remembering exactly what you did in a similar situation sometime in the past. Then they are able to calculate what their best move is based on stats and EV and they make the right move more often than not.
The same is true in chess. I have played chess against both a master and a grandmaster before. The interesting part for me was that they thought out loud for me. I had no chance against either of them, but it was fascinating for me to listen to them talk. I am educated enough about the game to know the various attacks and defenses they were talking about (geekiness again) but I could not put it all together. To tell the truth, they were seeing a totally different game than I was. That is what separates us from them in the long run.
To bring this back to the original topic, with the boom in full force (how long till the bubble pops?) we're seeing tens of millions of people trying the game out. People are entering tournaments online, in BM games and cruises all over the place. They see a guy like Moneymaker win the big one and Raymer win the next one and the race is on. They win an event (even a big one) and decide that they are on the same level as the pros.
Unlike football or baseball, the requirements to be a success in poker are very subtle. You cannot be an NFL lineman without being 300+ lbs. It just isn't an option. But you can be a poker champ no matter who you are. There is definitely is the skill factor - you have to be 300+ lbs AND have great feet and hands to play. Whether these guys are able to have Amarillo Slim or Brunson-like careers remains to be seen. They have been in the spotlight for between 12-20 months. Let's talk about their long term game in 5 years. The reason those old guys are legends is because they see the game in a different way than the rest of the world does, ala Kasparov and Fischer (chess again).
I think the pros have a right to feel that their space is being infringed on. I remember when David Wells got angry with the Toronto fans (I am talking about baseball here) because they were unable to appreciate the game. I think that is what frustrates the pros. Not that the game is getting popular, but rather that the popularity is breeding ignorance and lowering the general level of play by people who call themselves pros.
To be fair though, a poker pro is just someone who makes a living by playing poker.
Anyhow, my 0.02
If Howard makes a perfect read and picks off my AJo all in with his AQs preflop, thats great, but when he has to do this over and over and over, he will most likely eventually lose. I can see why the frsutration on their part exists, but I believe this applies only to tournament play. The meat and potatoes for any top notch money winning pro are the cash games. Daniel N. posted in his journal something to the effect of: 'you don't see those "TV tournament players" at the big cash games. They would get crushed.' By TV tourney players I assume he is referring to Moneymaker and Raymer. I think he is also referring to a lot of pros...Mike Matisow, even Hellmuth I cannot believe plays in the biggest cash games. Who does? Ivey, Harman, Negreanu, Brunson, Seidel, Greenstein, Flack, Ng, Cloutier, Chan, Nguyen (all of them prob.!) etc. An amateur would not have a chance in these games...(why do you think Rene Dion has lost so much dough in the last 5 years!!!!). A mere mortal would not even be able to sit in a game this size....how many people have the bankroll, never mind cojones, to play in a 15k-30k game with the players I just mentioned.
The cash game, I believe, is still the sacred domain of the upper echelon pro. I don't see this changing any time soon. However, I do feel some sympathy for them in regards to tournament play - considering how coveted those bracelets are.