AK sooted?

RAM_Eh

B & M tournament. 90 start, 30 left. Blinds are 400-800 and you have an average stack of 18.5K.

UTG you have AK sooted, you raise to 2400, all fold but the BB. Flop comes AKQ rainbow. BB pushes in 3000. BB has you covered by approximatley 4000

What do you do?

stpboy

Thank the dealer for such a great flop and raise to 7500 total. See where this guy is at, if he raises to back I might get worried but I have a very hard time getting away from this hand. Possible hands he could have are AA, KK, QQ (highly unlikely he as these IMO) AK, AQ, Ax, KQ, 10J or an underpair and his bet is trying to scare you off your (hopefull) underpair. Either way, I have a very hard time getting away from this. I think your question might be more along the line of how do you extract the most money from this.


stp

Chugs

I don't see any way from getting away from this hand.

The only 2 hands he could theoretically have pre-flop that he might have called the raise with and not re-raise you on the spot IMO are JT and QQ. Some people prefer to see a flop without an ace or king and proceed accordingly with queens.

I think you're committed to seeing this hand till the end no matter what, so the question is do you simply push now and take the roughly 8000 already in the pot or do you slow play a bit or basicly do something like raise him back the minimum and more or less force him to get more money into the pot, so raising it to 6-7000 should extract great value.


hmmm ... stp i just decided to go back and read your post ... i think i answered it almost identical

rgspence

Chugs wrote:

I think you're committed to seeing this hand till the end no matter what, so the question is do you simply push now and take the roughly 8000 already in the pot or do you slow play a bit or basicly do something like raise him back the minimum and more or less force him to get more money into the pot, so raising it to 6-7000 should extract great value.
hmmm ... stp i just decided to go back and read your post ... i think i answered it almost identical

Instead of typing for 10 min. I fully agree.

ScottyZ

I'd move all-in.

This one really boils down to:

1. Do I have the best hand right now? It's very likely so.

2. Is the pot currently big? It's quite big.

3. Does it seem dangerous to slowplay here and let another card come off? Lord yes.

Should my opponent make a (FTOP) mistake here and call with a pair + gutshot or two pair, I'd like to get maximum value for the mistake. Since this is a tournament, I really don't mind picking up the pot right now against an opponent with any kind of crappy draw, particularly one to the nuts when my own holding will be difficult to get away from for any amount of chips.

If my opponent is leading out 3,000 with complete garbage, I'm probably not getting more chips out of him anyway*, and I don't want to get stuck with a tough decision on the turn or river if a bad card comes off.

I think the main point is that if I'm going to muster any kind of value play that will work at any point in the hand, I'm likely to either

1. get paid off right now (i.e. on the flop) too

or

2. be "value" betting into a hand which has improved into one that I now lose to.

Against an even somewhat tricky/thinking/observant opponent, I may also move all-in in the same situation with a hand that the flop did not help. All the more reason (in the long run) to move in when I spike the goods.

ScottyZ

*Unless he's a super aggressive bluffer.

SirWatts

I agree with Scotty. This is a typical case of taking lower variance over higher expectation and winning the big pots right away. The other benefits he mentions about being able to bluff later in similar situations are also nice. This goes against my theory of everyone always overplays JT because it says somewhere in a book that it makes a lot of nut straights but there's not much you can do about that. If he did have the nuts he might well slowplay it, and most players would re-raise QQ preflop or continue to try to trap you with a checkraise on the flop I think. I would put him on AQ, KQ,AJ, or AT. All-in seems right against all these hands since the first 2 will probably call anwyays and you don't mind getting rid of the last 2 so much.

Mike

BBC Z

rgspence wrote:

Instead of typing

ScottyZ wrote:

at

SirWatts wrote:

all

rgspence wrote:

I fully agree.

EDIT: Ok, you caught me. I just wanted a comedic post and have no opinion on the discussion. Nor did I really even read the thread.

stpboy

You agree with moving all-in...? I don't agree with that at all. I'll explain later though, busy right now.
stp

SlantNGo

Call then re-evaluate on the turn.

stpboy

Ok...no longer busy. Why move all-in at this point, you may be beat. I realize that the 'typical player' would re-raise preflop with AA, KK, QQ and that if this player flopped a set or flopped broadway that they might slow play it. Who says this is a typical player? I'm not sure I would slow play this if I had the above hands. It is a dangerous flop. Also, you can't change the cards that are going to come on the turn and river by moving all-in, checking, calling, raising whatever...Say he has A10 or AJ and calls your all-in, I think we've all seen players make this call. Turn comes a 10 or J and I have top two pair, I have a MUCH easier time getting away from this. The theory of "I made the right call" and he sucked out on me doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I realize that you can take solace in the fact that you made the right call but if you're out of the tournament it doesn't matter. Throw out a feeler bet and make him pay all the way to the river for his chasing or get rid of it after the turn or river if it becomes scarier.

RAM_Eh

I went into the tank and thought about this for a few minutes.

1) If he had the nuts J,10 would he bet out? Would I? No. I would slow play this to get more money.

2) If he had AA, KK, QQ same as 1

3) If he had an under pair the bet would be to scare me off the pot? Yes, is a possiblity.

4) He has AK. Possible, I had him down as good solid player but if I had AK in the BB, I might of raised.

5) He has AQ and wants this pot over with as soon as possible.

The more I thought about it, I put him on AK or AQ. AK was no danger to me and AQ was not either unless he hit his two outer. I knew I was not going to ge away from this one and I wanted this hand over now with this in mind.

I moved all in.

He though for a couple of minutes and he more he thought the better I felt. I thought that if he had AK, AA, KK, QQ, or J 10 he would have called instantly. The longer it took, I thought he had AQ. He called.

He showed me an A Q and the rest of the board didn't help either one of us.

It was a good double up and helped me make the final table, but It did make my heart pound a bit.

stpboy

Awesome result for you but what if he would have folded? Would you have made the final table?? Possibly, possibly not. I suppose there are always several ways to play a hand and hindsight is 20/20 but I still dont like going all-in on that on the flop.

stp

ScoobyD

Turn comes a 10 or J and I have top two pair, I have a MUCH easier time getting away from this. The theory of "I made the right call" and he sucked out on me doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

I think this comes down to a preference of whether you're playing to win, or playing to not lose. Basically you're giving a hand like AJ or AT (which are in horrible shape against you) a ton of extra outs if you intend to fold the turn if a Q, J or T falls. You won't have any clue if they made 2 pair or the straight, (they might well think they're ahead with 2 pair since you played passive on the flop) and are basically going to concede the pot if either of those cards fall. I understand you want to reduce variance in a tourney, but think this is a little extreme. Next thing you know, you're only betting the nuts. I wouldn't expect the typical player to not reraise with AA, KK, or QQ, so I think a set is doubtful. JT might be a possibility, but I would expect the typical player to check that flop (unless maybe it was suited). That being said, I still have tons of problems with hands like top 2 pair, since I want to be able to "have my cake and eat it too" - ie. Make a bet that simultaneously will allow the possibility to be called by weaker (dominated) hands, protect against legitimate draws, and also allow myself to get away from the hand if I think I'm beat. I'm pretty convinced you can't do ALL 3 simultaneously, but maybe that's why I have a lot more work to do on my NL tourney game...

RAM_Eh

stpboy wrote:

Awesome result for you but what if he would have folded? Would you have made the final table?? Possibly, possibly not. I suppose there are always several ways to play a hand and hindsight is 20/20 but I still dont like going all-in on that on the flop.

stp

My honest thoughts were, I need this hand over. If he had me beat post flop he would have checked.

Would I have made the final table if he would have folded? Who knows, but I was playing well and the cards I was getting were helping also. I would like to think I still would have. This hand made me the chip leader at the table and I didn't do anything stupid to risk it.

When we made it down to 2 tables, I was just a little above average for the stacks, and when we went down to one table I was third or forth in chips. There were some wild swings at the final table!

RAM_Eh

ScoobyD wrote:

That being said, I still have tons of problems with hands like top 2 pair, since I want to be able to "have my cake and eat it too"

Although my post does not look like it, I believe that at that point in a tournament small pot poker is in order.

I honestly did not want the BB to call. I wanted the hand over! If I called him I would have given him a chance to draw me out. I had to put the preasure on him. He did call and I didn't get unlucky, it works sometimes. I would have been just as happy if he folded, although not as rich.

Rob M.

Chugs

Dead Money, i think the key was you saying if i was in his sitaution, if i had a complete monster, set or flopped straight would i bet out.

you determined that instead you would likely sit back and let the obvious agressor do the work for you in that situation.

stpboy

ScoobyD wrote:

I think this comes down to a preference of whether you're playing to win, or playing to not lose. Basically you're giving a hand like AJ or AT (which are in horrible shape against you) a ton of extra outs if you intend to fold the turn if a Q, J or T falls. You won't have any clue if they made 2 pair or the straight, (they might well think they're ahead with 2 pair since you played passive on the flop) and are basically going to concede the pot if either of those cards fall.

I'm playing to win and playing to not lose. Every hand you have is beatable until the river card comes down. My point was, that if you go all-in and the player does call and then a Q, J or T falls you are out. Why not get extra value and extra information out of it rather then just pushing all-in? My suggestion wasn't to play it passively, it was to raise his bet on the flop but why bother raising him out of the pot when you most likey have the best hand.

I understand you want to reduce variance in a tourney, but think this is a little extreme. Next thing you know, you're only betting the nuts. I wouldn't expect the typical player to not reraise with AA, KK, or QQ, so I think a set is doubtful. JT might be a possibility, but I would expect the typical player to check that flop (unless maybe it was suited).

The thing is with the comment 'typical players', you can't always guarantee that a player will play the way you expect them to play. How many times have you played where someone has flopped trips or flopped a flush and bet out? For me, this has happened several times. I just call with Aces, Kings and Queens all the time...I also raise with them. I find it hard to generalize player tactics, it gets me thinking "you are suppose to raise with XX in that position". Not the way I want to be thinking.

stp