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Let's talk BvB please

UnknownUnknown
in MTT Strategy
Definitely one of my bigger leaks.

I wanted to start this thread with a clean slate (i will throw in hands later) but i was hoping we could get a discussion going on ranges with BB effective stacks and overall strategy first, and then start throwing in examples

I wanna talk about stealing, 3b's , playing oop, everything lol

Comments

  • UnknownUnknown
    Ok, I guess ill start discussion

    A hand like this, how bad is it? I guess this isnt the best hand to play oop

    PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, 8.8 Tournament, 150/300 Blinds 40 Ante (9 handed) - PokerStars Hand Converter from HandHistoryConverter.com

    UTG+1 (t2629)
    MP1 (t10405)
    MP2 (t16408)
    MP3 (t7984)
    CO (t2894)
    Button (t8276)
    Hero (SB) (t9755)
    BB (t8518)
    UTG (t32154)

    Hero's M: 12.04

    Preflop: Hero is SB with 7c.gif, 6s.gif
    7 folds, Hero bets t600, BB raises to t1500, Hero calls t900

    Flop: (t3360) 4h.gif, 6h.gif, 9s.gif(2 players)
    Hero checks, BB checks

    Turn: (t3360) 8h.gif(2 players)
    Hero bets t1500, BB calls t1500

    River: (t6360) kc.gif(2 players)
    Hero checks, BB checks

    Total pot: t6360

    Hero wins.


    now, how much does reads have to do with BvB action? I always have a really tough time putting villian's on ranges... sigh, I just feel so lost, and I dont know why

    I feel like im folding my SB to BB too much, and I feel like when im in the BB, i play pots with a way wider range (too wide) in position, which I guess is std, but BvB is always something that makes me really uncomfortable.
  • holychowholychow
    A lot of players would raise or re-raise you with any ace or big cards (suited or not). From the BB's perspective, it looks like you're trying to steal and may have tried to re-steal with A-x or K-x.

    Blind play is interesting because you're playing a forced hand and you're always getting the right odds to call from the SB, but that doesn't mean you should play every hand you're dealt. Over-playing hands like A-x or K-x can get you into a lot of trouble. The biggest mistake a lot of tournament players make is over-playing hands from the blinds. Remember, the SB is OOP for the whole hand. You have to bet and figure out where you are and re-evaluate the action on every street.

    The benefit of being BB is you have position on your opponent the entire hand. You can run more bluffs from this position.

    I think you should play BvB for value and not worry too much about hands that aren't very strong.

    Getting back to your hand, it looks like the BB had a hand like A-x where the kicker hit the board and he might of had the nut flush draw on the turn. Or maybe a gutter?
  • jdAA88jdAA88
    When I played more cash online, I used to steal from the SB relentlessly just out of habit. Nowadays I've definitely cut back and feel like I fold my sb way more. Just from watching training vids and realizing that it's just the worst position to play from cos the BB can own you in so many ways. Therefore it's normal for you to feel uncomfortable playing from the SB cos IT IS uncomfortable lol

    You just can't peel 3bets w/ garbage like 76o, the open is fine but just fold to the 3b, you're gonna get yourself into trouble making plays like that.
  • UnknownUnknown
    holychow wrote: »
    A lot of players would raise or re-raise you with any ace or big cards (suited or not). From the BB's perspective, it looks like you're trying to steal and may have tried to re-steal with A-x or K-x.

    Blind play is interesting because you're playing a forced hand and you're always getting the right odds to call from the SB, but that doesn't mean you should play every hand you're dealt. Over-playing hands like A-x or K-x can get you into a lot of trouble. The biggest mistake a lot of tournament players make is over-playing hands from the blinds. Remember, the SB is OOP for the whole hand. You have to bet and figure out where you are and re-evaluate the action on every street.

    The benefit of being BB is you have position on your opponent the entire hand. You can run more bluffs from this position.

    I think you should play BvB for value and not worry too much about hands that aren't very strong.

    Getting back to your hand, it looks like the BB had a hand like A-x where the kicker hit the board and he might of had the nut flush draw on the turn. Or maybe a gutter?

    ty very much for the insight that went into your post

    In regards to this specific hand, villian showed up with like the weirdest hand lol, like Qx or something - I guess in theory, the 8h was a good card to bluff at, too bad for him im a station :confused2:

    But the reason I chose this hand to share, is because its just another example of me getting in another high variance situation, if the we didnt C/C the river, would I have called a bet on the river? knowing me, probably... and that's the problem.

    Does anyone have any sort of link to training video's or an article I can read on BvB play?

    The past 2 months, i had gotten into the habbit (after some coaching) to just fold in the SB like 95% of the time and feel ok about it, and that was fine until I really thought about it and I feel like im passing up some +EV steal spots, especially in the SB


    I know im kind of all over the place ITT, and im sorry for that, but I need to plug this leak and be solid in the blinds and then i feel like my ROI will skyrocket
  • holychowholychow
    I don't think folding SB is -EV since you're dealt a random hand that will most likely be crap anyway.

    Think about it this way. You're going to 3xBB to steal right? A re-raise is usually un-callable if you've initially raised with crap, or you get valued into calling and having to fold on the flop after you miss. That's why over-playing your SB is usually -EV IMO.

    I have a friend that ALWAYS tries to steal the blinds from the button. It's hilarious because he either gets donk lucky and wins a pot with rags or gets his money in bad trying to steal a pot he should never have been in. His logic is "I'm going to raise with both garbage and strong hands, so you'll never know what I have." It usually backfires on him.
  • UnknownUnknown
    holychow wrote: »
    I don't think folding SB is -EV since you're dealt a random hand that will most likely be crap anyway.

    Think about it this way. You're going to 3xBB to steal right? A re-raise is usually un-callable if you've initially raised with crap, or you get valued into calling and having to fold on the flop after you miss. That's why over-playing your SB is usually -EV IMO.

    I have a friend that ALWAYS tries to steal the blinds from the button. It's hilarious because he either gets donk lucky and wins a pot with rags or gets his money in bad trying to steal a pot he should never have been in. His logic is "I'm going to raise with both garbage and strong hands, so you'll never know what I have." It usually backfires on him.

    nah, with ante's I always min raise, 2.2x if im EP , my stealing size is always min raises from HJ-SB

    i feel like i can out play alot of ppl post flop but obv i get pwned up sometimes by 3b's , etc that handcuff me
  • Richard~Richard~
    later in tournaments I make it 2,6-2,75x from the SB. My standard is even 2,75x unless I think my opp is a nit. I also defend from the BB super wide
  • Wetts1012Wetts1012
    Richard~ wrote: »
    later in tournaments I make it 2,6-2,75x from the SB. My standard is even 2,75x unless I think my opp is a nit. I also defend from the BB super wide

    This is so accurate.

    Minning up to 2.2 is just asking to get owned in the sb. I'm not against opening significant sb when unopened but make it 2.6 to 2.8. I defend almost all hands in the bb in this spot to minraise b/c people are so lost post flop.
  • GTA PokerGTA Poker
    costanza wrote: »
    ty very much for the insight that went into your post

    In regards to this specific hand, villian showed up with like the weirdest hand lol, like Qx or something - I guess in theory, the 8h was a good card to bluff at, too bad for him im a station :confused2:

    But the reason I chose this hand to share, is because its just another example of me getting in another high variance situation, if the we didnt C/C the river, would I have called a bet on the river? knowing me, probably... and that's the problem.

    Does anyone have any sort of link to training video's or an article I can read on BvB play?

    The past 2 months, i had gotten into the habbit (after some coaching) to just fold in the SB like 95% of the time and feel ok about it, and that was fine until I really thought about it and I feel like im passing up some +EV steal spots, especially in the SB


    I know im kind of all over the place ITT, and im sorry for that, but I need to plug this leak and be solid in the blinds and then i feel like my ROI will skyrocket

    I assume the Q was a heart? I don't think that many lower limit players bluff that river so if he bets into you he prob had overs with a heart and hit his king...even weak players will CBet a flush draw on the flop so a bet on the river by him is very polarized at higher limits and at least top pair at lower limits.

    I personally fold that spot pre without reads that my steal will work vs villian a fairly good part of the time.
  • UnknownUnknown
    Wetts1012 wrote: »
    This is so accurate.

    Minning up to 2.2 is just asking to get owned in the sb. I'm not against opening significant sb when unopened but make it 2.6 to 2.8. I defend almost all hands in the bb in this spot to minraise b/c people are so lost post flop.

    your raise sizes are this big? I min raise all day long (w/ antes) I just like to be consistent... I guess I gotta work on opening sizes now too LOL, gg my poker game.
    GTA Poker wrote: »
    I assume the Q was a heart? I don't think that many lower limit players bluff that river so if he bets into you he prob had overs with a heart and hit his king...even weak players will CBet a flush draw on the flop so a bet on the river by him is very polarized at higher limits and at least top pair at lower limits.

    I personally fold that spot pre without reads that my steal will work vs villian a fairly good part of the time.

    No the Queen wasn't a heart, thats why I was so confused when he showed up with trash

    If a 4th heart peeled on the river id obv snap fold

    yeah, looking back, calling the 3b was HORRENDOUS, but I dont mind playing connectors and suited stuff oop, my flat-ing range probably seems alot stronger then what it actually is.

    I got ahold of Vekked, hopefully he can chime in on the overall strategy of blind play for me (us). Im obsessing over hands ive played bad BvB and have zero confidence lol, im finding mistakes and stuff i think i made lol
  • UnknownUnknown
    Costanza: If hero min raises 76o, whats the worst hand in hero's range we can assume he has?


    I think you're in danger of trying to cover a war wound with a band aid here. From what Ive seen you have a bigger set of issues that is causing your bvb discomfort:

    1) having actual defined preflop ranges from each position (open raise, flat, or 3bet)
    2) learning to respond properly to 3bets.
    3) cbetting well which leads to good postflop

    you can't learn postflop play with out being strong at those (so I'm just beginning to find out).


    BVB

    Here's what I was shown about bvb (and you can change the math and apply a bigger raise size like Wetts suggested as I'll explain after).

    WARNING-math could be off but concept is there


    PREFLOP:


    folds to hero in the sb @ bb300 40 antes

    there is (150 + 300 + 360) 810 in the pot


    If hero min raises 150 to 600 he risks 450 to win 810 ....810/450 = 1.8 to 1

    Every time we succeed we win almost two more 450's back including our initial bet.


    So we start to profit if villain folds more than 1 out of 3 tries.

    Which means he has to be calling or raising with at least 2/3's (66%) of the hands in the deck....and usually only really good or really bad players do that...

    Not even good 180 man regs play that many hands bvb, (more like 35% of hands just guessing prob less though).

    We profit in the long run preflop from folds, even if we just check/fold any postflop streets.



    POSTFLOP:

    If we see a flop there will be 810 + 450 + 300 = 1560

    We get a new opportunity to make a new plus ev wager.

    We can cbet 750 (half pot) into 1560, and again we give ourselves 2 to 1 odds that he will fold...

    We expect villain will fold the flop 2/3 of the time because 2/3's of the time everyone misses the flop (can google that or look it up in a poker book).


    We haven't yet looked at our hand range or the flop textures. Having a hand and equity on the flop just makes it more profitable.


    If we are playing a big blind player like Wetts who will call a lot in position because of skill then we should play differently and possibly raise bigger and tighten up but you should just pick hands that are decent anyways.
  • UnknownUnknown
    darbday wrote: »
    Costanza: If hero min raises 76o, whats the worst hand in hero's range we can assume he has?


    I think you're in danger of trying to cover a war wound with a band aid here. From what Ive seen you have a bigger set of issues that is causing your bvb discomfort:

    1) having actual defined preflop ranges from each position (open raise, flat, or 3bet)
    2) learning to respond properly to 3bets.
    3) cbetting well which leads to good postflop

    you can't learn postflop play with out being strong at those (so I'm just beginning to find out).


    BVB

    Here's what I was shown about bvb (and you can change the math and apply a bigger raise size like Wetts suggested as I'll explain after).

    WARNING-math could be off but concept is there


    PREFLOP:


    folds to hero in the sb @ bb300 40 antes

    there is (150 + 300 + 360) 810 in the pot


    If hero min raises 150 to 600 he risks 450 to win 810 ....810/450 = 1.8 to 1

    Every time we succeed we win almost two more 450's back including our initial bet.


    So we start to profit if villain folds more than 1 out of 3 tries.

    Which means he has to be calling or raising with at least 2/3's (66%) of the hands in the deck....and usually only really good or really bad players do that...

    Not even good 180 man regs play that many hands bvb, (more like 35% of hands just guessing prob less though).

    We profit in the long run preflop from folds, even if we just check/fold any postflop streets.



    POSTFLOP:

    If we see a flop there will be 810 + 450 + 300 = 1560

    We get a new opportunity to make a new plus ev wager.

    We can cbet 750 (half pot) into 1560, and again we give ourselves 2 to 1 odds that he will fold...

    We expect villain will fold the flop 2/3 of the time because 2/3's of the time everyone misses the flop (can google that or look it up in a poker book).


    We haven't yet looked at our hand range or the flop textures. Having a hand and equity on the flop just makes it more profitable.


    If we are playing a big blind player like Wetts who will call a lot in position because of skill then we should play differently and possibly raise bigger and tighten up but you should just pick hands that are decent anyways.

    This is a very informative sick post from what I can tell and will adress it in a little bit when im done grindghi

    tyty sir
  • holychowholychow
    Ah. I was purely talking cash.

    Tourney play is a different matter entirely.

    Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk 2
  • betrthanphilbetrthanphil
    Mike, your biggest leak by far is flatting 3bets. I mean there is a time and place to do it, but you seem to do it with ATC in any situation. If you stopped doing that altogether I guarantee your results would improve.
    Who cares if he steals one or 2 or 3 pots off you pre flop. What is worse is getting yourself into situations where your going to be playing the guessing game a high % of the time. You want to be in control of the pot not playing on the defensive side.

    As for blind play Ill make it about 2.5 from sb, never min raise. The first time at a new table it folds to me in the sb ill usually fold just to give them the impression that I won't be stealing from him.
  • UnknownUnknown
    betrthanphil wrote: »
    Mike, your biggest leak by far is flatting 3bets. I mean there is a time and place to do it, but you seem to do it with ATC in any situation. If you stopped doing that altogether I guarantee your results would improve.
    Who cares if he steals one or 2 or 3 pots off you pre flop. What is worse is getting yourself into situations where your going to be playing the guessing game a high % of the time. You want to be in control of the pot not playing on the defensive side.

    As for blind play Ill make it about 2.5 from sb, never min raise. The first time at a new table it folds to me in the sb ill usually fold just to give them the impression that I won't be stealing from him.

    I agree, thanx for that insight, its much appreciated.
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