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" Can I see that hand.."
NO YOU CAN'T.
What a ridiculous rule that was implemented to protect players from collusion ( good), but that is exploited and manipulated by the many (not good).
I am sure you are a decent enough player to narrow down the hands to which I could be calling/raising with, figure it out on your own. You don't ask to see when you are online, don't do it at the casino.
It slows down the game and alot of people take offence to it ( me included).
If you believe I am colluding with someone ( why the rule was implemented) , by all means do so, call the super over and lets get it solved, but if it is just to see how I play after I have laid my hand down to your winner, you are making an enemy.
Let a man lose with some dignity.
What a ridiculous rule that was implemented to protect players from collusion ( good), but that is exploited and manipulated by the many (not good).
I am sure you are a decent enough player to narrow down the hands to which I could be calling/raising with, figure it out on your own. You don't ask to see when you are online, don't do it at the casino.
It slows down the game and alot of people take offence to it ( me included).
If you believe I am colluding with someone ( why the rule was implemented) , by all means do so, call the super over and lets get it solved, but if it is just to see how I play after I have laid my hand down to your winner, you are making an enemy.
Let a man lose with some dignity.
Comments
It was clear to everyone at the table that I was a bit intoxicated, and just looking for a good time. I was playing a little looser than usual... Anyways, I got involved with A9 somehow and ended up holding the best hand--top pair, top kicker all the way to the river, whereupon somebody made a straight or something. I just called the out-of-the-blue river bet, and mucked my cards. I think I'd been betting or raising every street before that. A guy at the other end of the table asked the dealer if he could see my cards, and I was more or less shocked. I believe I said something like 'is that good enough for you? Top pair top kicker?'. Then I picked up my chips and left, telling the guy that he just managed to get rid of the easiest money at the table.
Did I over-react? Probably. But from that experience I can see how someone would take offense to it, and unless I'm in a VERY serious game, or I have a VERY strong reason to suspect I'm being cheated, I never ask to see someone's cards after they muck them. I can think of lots of good reasons why people would want to ask, but like mac, it just isn't for me.
Maybe I am missing the point, perhaps someone could clarify it for me.
How does looking at the losing hand help you determine if there is collusion?
You won, get over it. I agree, in the case above, the only purpose it serves is seeing what you were playing.
Would the guy have been mad if you had top pair and were chasing a straight or flush or second pair How about small PP chasing a set? As you stated, you were there for fun and he should have recognized you as a money pit and kept his mouth shut.
cheers
2 players( or more) can/do trap a third player ( or more) by wrapping and capping some or all streets when the 2 players are colluding and signalling off their hands. When someone asks to see a losing/called hand it can be surmised based on their hole cards if indeed they did have a hand that coincided with the board, or if they had no business being in the hand and raising with their garbage does give credibility to the unsuspecting, that there is indeed something wrong going on at this table. Thus the collusion.
Thanks for the clarification
Profitable 2-4 session at River Rock
where there was maniacs 3-betting and capping with any 2 sooted cards or any 1, yes 1 , face card and any other random card
i called one of the guys down with a pair of 5's once and before he had mucked, i asked to see his hand before it hit the muck and the dealer turned over his 94h for 9 high. that was the only time i did it, its just that for the first bit him, and the person beside him were constantly 3-betting and capping it preflop/flop/turn etc and it would end up HU a lot of the time......so i wanted to see exactly what they were raisign with in case of collusion.....now the thing is, i doubt they were colluding....because if they were, you'd think they'd stop doing this after basically being exposed......turns out they were just really really horrible players, so i would trap them/let them do all the raising for me....but once i figured out how 'random' their raises were, i took advantage of them and they were my atms, thats why i ended up like +$400 in 4-5 hrs at that table from 2-4...
Its not something i ask commonly, just when theres some odd actions every hand over and over again.... my suspicions were fulfilled after seeing that 94h that they werent smart enough to collude....
Hope this helps a bit
Pigga
If I get somebody really trying to tilt me with that crap, I call the floor over everytime to ask him if he sees any suspected collusion. Of course he won't, but he'll eventually get pissed when I call him over every hand I play to showdown.
I use this rule on occasion, especially when I am the new guy at a table. I like to see what people like to play with. For me, it's more about learning their pre-flop strategy than what they made at the end of the hand. If somone raises pre-flop and then calls the hand to the end and loses, I like to know what they consider raise-worth cards. It has nothing to do with respect or ettiquete, or gettin gunder someone's skin (which I use this for too sometimes) but more to save myself a few bucks and learn people's patterns.
That being said, I also like to make sure anyone on tilt who loses a hand is made to expose their hand and keep the tilt machine running a little longer.
i always just throw it deep into the muck.
This is angle shooting!!!! Play fair and don't be an ass!!! You may piss a guy off like Harthgosh and then what will you do?
I sense some serious aggressiveness from Harthgosh there. If it's a rule, then anyone can use it and not be called a POS. It's interesting that harthgosh would respond to a legal, albeit annoying, request with some serious misbehaviour on the table. Trying to much another's cards is a far worse offense than asking to see a dead hand, IMO. Any called hand can be seen by the table. Period.
The rule is, actually, that the hand MUST be mucked for the dealer to open it. I speak of poker in Ontario only though. Normally once a player folds, the dealer sweeps all cards into the muck before awarding the pot. If another player at the table (who doesn't have to be one of the callers, BTW) asks to see the cards, the dealer is to touch the hand to the muck first and then open them. This protects the 'winner' in case the player who folds misreads his/her hand. A winning hand that has not been mucked may be awarded the pot. Usually a dealer or supervisor would properly award the pot, but mucking the hand first removes all doubt.
If someone who i respect asks and i think its fair i show right away. What i get hostile about is when dumb old rocks ask to see my hand after i lose. I generally dont pay people off on the river for a small pot, so it is lame to have someone not in the hand on the river asking to see it, it means he cant figure it out. If he does it to me again it doesnt effect my poker, and i will try to muck his hands. Its his problem if he doesnt protect his cards... im just exploiting another dumb rule at the table back at him.
When I have done that, I don't use it on EVERY hand that gets mucked, but if an interesting or action packed hand occurs I like to know as much as I can about it.
And I disagree with your calling intent to muck another's hand another dumb rule. It's malicious and while I agree that old rocks being sticklers for the rules can be irritating - I still think it's in bad taste to overreact and play dirty.
I think u misunderstood. In card rooms I am familiar with, it is perfectly ok to throw your cards on someones unprotected hand. there is no rule that says u cant do it if u make it look like an accident. and their hand is dead.... true, the trip to the parking lot may be hazardous to my health... lol
the rule that im manipulating back is the not protectong their cards rule, which most people dont do in the first 20 seconds of any hand or are generally sloppy about doing.
i had only did it once at the beginning of my session
- You use oil of Olay don't you?
I think that's the whole point. Using (abusing?) the rule to gain information cheaply isn't so much cheating as it is seen to be impolite. I generally am not a fan of rubbing salt in people's wounds. They lost, so at least let them muck in peace. Hopefully they'll be doing a lot more mucking when they call your monsters later...
Note: Don't call me with poo and then get mad if I ask to see em
Regardless, knowing you angle shoot makes me really want to play cards with you....NOT!
Here's my algorithm for using this rule, which I basically exclusively use with the "speed up the game" purpose:
1. Never use this rule against a fish.
2. Almost always use this rule when the player who is supposed to show first (i.e. the last aggressive action) fails to show his/her hand promptly.
3. #1 supercedes #2.
And obviously,
4. Always use this rule (superceding all of the above) if I actually suspect collusion is going on.
Whatever the original motivations people think were for this rule, it's now just a rule. And it can be used for a whole bunch of reasons. IMO, there is no such thing as "abusing" this rule.
I've seen people use it in all kinds of ways, from absolute beginners who want to see every showdown hand because they are just learning about poker, to good players who want to occasionally verify a read on a player's cards, to expert players who want to put someone on tilt.
Don't go on tilt or try to surgically muck your cards mid-stub if someone asks to see your cards. Just show them promptly in order to quickly move on to the next hand. Good players want to play more hands per hour, not cause a fuss between hands that will slow down the game, right?
ScottyZ
Well, rules can certainly vary from place to place. This particular rule certainly does not have to be a rule in any particular poker game.
I guess my main point is that deterrence collusion is just one aspect of, and probably the original motivation for, this rule. However, the rule (as it is handled in many places I've played) itself has other uses, which some people may think are good or bad. But at the end of the day, it's just a rule that's out there for people to use, and letting some particular method of its use upset you can't be good for your overall poker game.
ScottyZ
Like I said I should never assume 'cause....well I already have proven why. I do appologize as I thought your particular use of the rule was a misuse. I still think of as angle shooting but I will happily show you my hand if it's a rule.
But make sure to check to see if this is actually a rule at the place you're playing.
In a casino, if you're not sure, just muck your cards normally and let the dealer do it. At a home game, check with the organizer of the game.
ScottyZ
Sheesh. No wonder you didn't wanna show ...
internal argument begins!
Okay, I'm sorry.
I want to see that hand
If you fold and someone asks to see your hand, quickly ask..."Do you suspect me of collusion?"... when they answer "No!"... because we all know they're just fishing for info, call the floor!! When the floor shows up, ask them to explain this rule to the idiot at the table... works everytime! (this assumes the floor knows the correct rule!)