Should I call or shove?

kidkanak

Hey guys, I was in a spot last night in the Bigger 11$ and I still wonder if I made the right move.

995 players left, I have around 74k left (average was about 120k if I remember correctly) Blinds were 1.5k-3k (if I remember correctly)

I pick up AcKc on the button and it's folded to me. I raise 4x (I have 62kish left behind) The SB folds and the BB (who is a reasonably tight player) raises to 30k. (he had about 240k before starting the hand)

I shoved my remaining 40kish and got insta called by QQ. I didnt hit and was eliminated.


Now I wonder if it was the optimal move?

If I only call his raise, I hit no draws and no pair on the flop, maybe I could have gotten away from my hand after a shove on the flop?

Should I have folded my AK to the 3 bet and waited for a better spot? (I actually thought about this for some time since he was a fairly tight player, but I wasn't sure if he was just playing back at me with an A-X hand that I would have dominated, which is why I opted for the 4 bet shove)

Should I have raised less preflop from the button?

Unknown

that is standard as it comes

Unknown

Pros min raise a lot late game but I think you need some more experience before you do that. But on the button late game you should prob only raise 2.5 times the bb (75k in this hand).

There two bonus's for raising smaller, one if you want to try steal the blinds with a worse hand it doesn't cost as much . And sometimes if you raise smaller the blinds will re raise you with weaker hands like AJ.

As for the hand, definitely shove over his 3bet, and don't worry about what he has or what happens after that....

westside8

4x is def too big. Otherwise the rest of the hand is pretty standard. Def. don't fold AK even if the villain showed you the QQ

betrthanphil

too keep things not complicated......from now on in mtts only min raise....once you get the hand of that we will go into raising a little more pre ante etc.....but from now on only min raise. The problem with only flatting and folding when you hit no draws is he will do the same thing with Ak, AQ and prob AJs. Some even KQ or just air in general. You didn't get it in that bad, the fact is you can't win every tourney and to do so you will have to get into similar spots like this. Flip better....

kidkanak

Yea I def need to improve my end game, but being a barely break even player, I don't get the chance to work on it that much


@westside8 I realise now 4x doesnt make much sense if I want to be called by weaker hands. I'll def be open raising less from now on.


@darbdaybetrthanphil I will definitely try the min raise from now on when I get to higher blinds, or do you mean min raises even when the blinds are small?

I usually don't mind shoving AK when a bit shortstacked but I guess what bothers me a bit in this situation is that I had a bad feeling when I shoved that I would be called by a better hand.

Meistro

agreed with minraising.

ReeferCash

darbday wrote: »

There two bonus's for raising smaller, one if you want to try steal the blinds with a worse hand it doesn't cost as much . And sometimes if you raise smaller the blinds will re raise you with weaker hands like AJ. QUOTE]

This. 3xBB raise shouldn't even be an option. Giving your stack size, I'd personnaly 2x minraise but 2.5x is fine. And you should always 2x or 2.5x in the late stages of tournaments because you lower variance and create smaller pots. Always raise approx the same amount no matter what your cards are.

AKs in the spot, raise to 6k-7k and re-shove over a 3-bet // standard.

SuitedPair

anyone see value in Min raising, flatting the 3 and folding the flop when we miss?

will be left with less than 20bb after the hand but not totally dire until the next level.

Too cautious and nitty?

Unknown

SuitedPair wrote: »

anyone see value in Min raising, flatting the 3 and folding the flop when we miss?

I know what you mean by 'value' but you want to re write your poker definition of it. In poker value means getting some chips in when you are ahead of your opponents range. The misconception is you make money when you scoop up a pot but thats not true and not a good way to see it. You make money when your chips get in and you are ahead of his range. So here even though villain had QQ, AK is wildly ahead of his range so we need to get 'value' to offset the times when we don't get good hands or loose chips to the blinds.

The other thing is if there are already chips in the pot (blinds, antes, and our opening raise) then we don't even need to be 51/49 we can be a slight underdog to our opponents range and still get it in for 'value' (45/55 etc).

SuitedPair wrote: »

and folding the flop when we miss?

We can mathematically calculate the times when an A or a K hits the flop, and we will find that its not often enough to make this play. But more importantly we miss out on value which is sad :-\:p:-\.

Another point is with 25ish bbs when we bet pre, if we are going to call a raise we have pot odds to stack off because we have so little chips. You really need more bbs to flat (40 at least, but maybe even 50 or 60?).

Lastly, if you even flat and then fold the flop when no Ace or King hits but your oppenent had KQ or something but missed too, then theoretically you made a mistake and you suffer a loss vs. all the value you accumulated earlier because you folded the better hand.

SuitedPair wrote: »

Too cautious and nitty?

just that you are trying to win the pot with that play, instead we need value.

HammerDad

After you raised so much (about 6th of your stack) you are likely never folding here.

Calling and folding the flop is beyond horrible. You'd be getting better than 4 to 1 to call there, which means if you saw villains hand, you'd still be getting near odds to call with your over cards.

You are the button and because of that position, your hand is likely under-rep'd (notwithstanding the huge preflop raise). Any 1/2 decent villain is likely to play back at you with 77+, A10+ and likely KJ+. So the range of hands that you are crushing vs the range of hands that have you crushed are well on your side.

Ship and get it in. I never fold in that spot with only ~23bb.