Folding Aces Analysis

stpboystpboy
in Brags, Beats & Variance
You're in a NLHE tournament, one re-buy is still an option for you (you are willing to take it but would rather not unless it is totally necessary). All players remain. You get Aces dealt to you on the button. Action goes something like this...

Blinds 25/50

Unknown player UTG+3 (2200) raises to 150
Respected/tricky player (3500) thinks and calls 150 from MP
Aces/tight premium hand player (2400) raises to 350
Unknown calls
RTP, pauses and calls

Flop Q J J
Unknown checks
RTP checks
Aces bets out 200
Unknown folds
RTP raises to 500

Do you fold here? Does the check-raise automatically mean that RTP has the Jack? Was the 200 bet to small for the size of the pot, did RTP sense weakness? How would you have played this up to this point and beyond?
Thank you in advance.

stp

Comments

  • AstroboyAstroboy
    I think the question is if you are willing to rebuy. I think the hands you have to put RTP on are AK, AQ, AJ, KK or QQ. Do you think that RTP had the ability to call an extra 200, when there is already a caller in front, with AJ? Would RTP have re-raised preflop with QQ to try to isolate? Because those are the only two hands you put him on if you're thinking about folding. He could have you pegged on AK and perhaps hit top pair. I think if I were put in this position, I'd go over the top, all-in. You're still in rebuy. Also with raising, I raise the same amount no matter what I have. I open 4XBB preflop and bet the pot the rest of the way through. That way I don't create betting patterns. Only my opinion though. I would like to hear what everyone else thinks, what you did, and how the hand unfolded.
  • SlantNGoSlantNGo
    I think 200 is definitely too small of a bet. I count ~1100 in the pot, and you've still got ~2100 in your stack, throw 600 or so at this flop.
  • stpboystpboy
    Alright well, I guess this thread wasn't that interesting after all. The reason I posted it was because I was surprised that when the guy that had aces (it wasnt me) folded he later on told me he was holding aces and was, of course, surprised and disapointed when I told him I had Kings. Nice call Astroboy...

    I was thinking about the hand and wondering if he played it well or not. I would have obviously bet more on the flop if I were him, he left a check raise wide open for himself but at the same time QJJ is a scary flop.
    Thanks for the replies.

    stp
  • Dave ScharfDave Scharf
    You're in a NLHE tournament, one re-buy is still an option for you (you are willing to take it but would rather not unless it is totally necessary). All players remain. You get Aces dealt to you on the button. Action goes something like this...

    Blinds 25/50

    Unknown player UTG+3 (2200) raises to 150
    Respected/tricky player (3500) thinks and calls 150 from MP
    Aces/tight premium hand player (2400) raises to 350
    Unknown calls
    RTP, pauses and calls
    Hmmm... what they got? Difficult to know, but I will guess "big aces" or pairs. Unlikely that they will call with a have a hand like KJ
    Flop Q J J
    Unknown checks
    RTP checks
    Aces bets out 200
    Unknown folds
    RTP raises to 500
    Fold. You have him the the book as RTP. Other option is make is to raise to 1000. Then he KNOWS you have AA or KK and you KNOW if he re-raises that you are beat.
    How would you have played this up to this point and beyond?
    I would have made a bigger raise pre-flop.
  • peteskipeteski
    I am the guy who folded the aces. (Incidentally, don't worry about criticizing my play. In fact, I encourage it.)

    A couple of things.

    First, a correction. I'm pretty sure the blinds were 10/20 because I'm positive the first player in made it 50 and that I raised to 150. The flop bets were correct, but obviously there is a big difference in the pot size. The thing is I usually make a habit of betting just about half the size of the pot on the flop. So I agree that betting 200 into a 1100 pot would not be sufficient but 200 into a 450 pot isn't so bad (although a little more is probably warranted. )

    Now, in retrospect I would say I made a mistake in folding for a couple of reasons that didn't seem to occur to me at the time. First of all, I had a rebuy available to me. There are very few hands he can have that beat me and with a rebuy available, I think this is a gamble worth taking. Secondly, I didn't really give enough thought to what STP could have. Would he call a raise and a reraise with AJ? It's not out of the question, but it's unlikely. Not only that, but before the flop he paused and I remember thinking it didn't look like a question of whether to fold or call, but whether to call or raise. If I'd gone with that feeling there's nothing I could put him on that would beat me (I'm pretty sure the flop had a 4 or something and not a Q, so I didn't have to worry about QQ). Finally, even though I've only played with STP a couple of times, I did know he was tricky (I'm not sure about respected :wink: ) and I should have known he was capable of check-raising there with hands that didn't include a jack.

    So, what was I thinking? Well, after the check-raise I knew that if I was going to continue with this hand I basically had to be willing to commit the rest of my chips. I still had a pretty decent amount of chips compared to the blinds, so I didn't mind avoiding this mess and living to fight another day. If I just called there, I figured he'd probably force me to commit the rest (or most of the rest) of my chips on the turn, so to me this was the point of no return. For this reason, I don't mind folding here if I don't have the option of a rebuy available to me. However, with the rebuy available, I definitely think I should have gone over the top. It's just that sometimes when faced with a decision for all my chips, I sometimes have a tendency to say "well he might have this" and get scared off. Sometime, actually, I have a tendency to do the opposite and say to myself "well he might be bluffing" or "he might only have this" and make some rediculously bad calls. Actually, I think the former is more common with live play and the latter more common with online play. Regardless, if STP had just been a man and re-raised before the flop with his kings, like a normal human being, I could have avoided this mess altogether.

    Finally, I just wanted to say to STP that I am insulted that you think I am an "Aces/tight premium hand player." Don't you remember that suited Q2 I had when you busted me? :wink:
  • stpboystpboy
    peteski wrote:
    I am the guy who folded the aces. (Incidentally, don't worry about criticizing my play. In fact, I encourage it.)
    When I thought about this hand after the fact I wasn't sure if it was a GREAT laydown or a situation where you should have done more with your hand. Either way it was a very tough lay down and not one that a bad player could have made. I would have a hard time laying it down.
    Regardless, if STP had just been a man and re-raised before the flop with his kings, like a normal human being, I could have avoided this mess altogether.
    Yes, when players don't play the way they should play it pisses me off to. If I would have raised I would have been in the mess and not you. Of course who knows, maybe I would have rivered my two outter ;)
    Finally, I just wanted to say to STP that I am insulted that you think I am an "Aces/tight premium hand player." Don't you remember that suited Q2 I had when you busted me? :wink:
    Oh yeah I forgot about that hand, I was thinking to myself afterwards, what the hell is he playing that for? Time to re-think box I put him in....re-think for next tourmanent.
    Thanks for replying Pete.

    stp (not a normal human being)
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