Options

How's this?

3 other winning regs at my table...

Poker Stars, $2.28 + $0.22 NL Hold'em Tournament, 125/250 Blinds, 25 Ante, 9 Players

JodaB. (UTG): 4,483
UTG+1: 1,040
UTG+2: 2,775
MP1: 2,930
MP2: 5,976
CO: 3,605
BTN: 920
SB: 3,818
BB: 4,595

Pre-Flop: (600) Jclubnormal.gif Tclubnormal.gif dealt to JodaB. (UTG)
JodaB. raises to 1,937 ???

Comments

  • dont like, i just dunno why we need to do this

    am i missing something?
  • reibs wrote: »
    dont like, i just dunno why we need to do this

    am i missing something?
    wwyd?
  • probably fold pre.

    If I were MP, I prob min it.

    Im really interested though to figure out why you did this

    Edit: do you remember which stacks the regs were?
  • reibs wrote: »
    probably fold pre.

    If I were MP, I prob min it.

    Im really interested though to figure out why you did this

    Edit: do you remember which stacks the regs were?
    i don't think stacks/players matters, but my assumption is jamming pre is +ev ???
  • Obviously you are raising enough to commit to a shove from another player as folding now is out of the question.

    IMO we are trying to ISO the BB, however, should anyone tag along I see a lot negative implied odds as we will have to shove any flop to take the side pot and will likely never be called by worse. Shove 20bb's pre here is also bad.

    I think raising to 600-750 and hoping to play UTG+2 and BB is likely going to get the same results vs committing our stack. If one of reg's sniff this iso out, they call you light and you'll be OOP and committed.
  • Really TJs 18bb utg is +EV?

    I wouldn't have guessed that. <
    Me realizing how much more time I need to put into stove/nash
  • Ugly. So we raise so much to guarantee that we will always get it in bad preflop vs the field. Risk way too high for reward way too low.
  • reibs wrote: »
    Really TJs 18bb utg is +EV?

    I wouldn't have guessed that. <
    Me realizing how much more time I need to put into stove/nash
    no no no....you can't take my word for it tho.... i dunno
    Ugly. So we raise so much to guarantee that we will always get it in bad preflop vs the field. Risk way too high for reward way too low.
    so you just fold pre prob?
  • darbday wrote: »
    no no no....you can't take my word for it tho.... i dunno

    I will let you know what I come up with when I play around w it tonite.
  • HammerDad wrote: »
    Obviously you are raising enough to commit to a shove from another player as folding now is out of the question.

    IMO we are trying to ISO the BB, however, should anyone tag along I see a lot negative implied odds as we will have to shove any flop to take the side pot and will likely never be called by worse. Shove 20bb's pre here is also bad.

    I think raising to 600-750 and hoping to play UTG+2 and BB is likely going to get the same results vs committing our stack. If one of reg's sniff this iso out, they call you light and you'll be OOP and committed.

    yes i def can't fold after this or on any flop...im somewhat commited even with a min raise tho to some stacks and a min raise might let in extra players with weaker pairs. As for picking me off, i don't think anyone here is capable. They might say hey forboon doesn't have AA or KK but he prob has AQ or 99 ish .....i think theyll give me too much credit and fold hands they should call/jam.
  • JTs UTG tho.......
  • This is a fold pre most of the time. Even if you find a situation where you can find an option that's not a fold...raising like 40% of your stack in this situation can never be the best option.
  • costanza wrote: »
    JTs UTG tho.......

    If it makes it through to the BB he is likely ahead of BB range or flipping.

    BB has to play ATC as they have too much of their stack invested.

    IMO, the bet does seem like an ISO raise. Whether or not you run into a hand is irrelevent at this point. We are committed to play the hand. We aren't likely to have worse than 30% equity vs most hands we are behind. If we run into JJ or something, well that sucks but we still have draws.

    I would much prefer to be HJ or better here though.
  • HammerDad wrote: »

    BB has to play ATC as they have too much of their stack invested.

    I don't think you're looking at the right thread
  • Richard~ wrote: »
    I don't think you're looking at the right thread
    so glad you said that i thought maybe i wasn't looking at the right thread :-\
  • Richard~ wrote: »
    I don't think you're looking at the right thread

    doh, BTN is the small stack.....I am just back from vacation, my brain is still adjusting...

    I still think it isn't brutal. BB isn't likely going to be calling light as we've invested so much. Should the BTN call we are likely flipping vs their range (Ax, Kx type hands).

    It isn't a move I would do often, but it does balance our UTG range a touch and having 3 regs at the table that may help us down the road.
  • HammerDad wrote: »
    it does balance our UTG range a touch and having 3 regs at the table that may help us down the road.
    actually this kind of unbalances our ranges because we aren't likely doing this with any really strong hand
  • darbday wrote: »
    actually this kind of unbalances our ranges because we aren't likely doing this with any really strong hand

    You think?

    If we are always ISO raising with premium hands UTG, wouldn't that become predictable? Although, whether or not predictable is relevent is questionable as we committed so much here we can't fold anyway.

    Again, I don't mind the raise to try and ISO, but I personally wouldn't raise to commit with J10. <20bb UTG with this hand is probably going to be a fold more often then not.

    At least you didn't limp...lol
  • This is a fold pre most of the time. Even if you find a situation where you can find an option that's not a fold...raising like 40% of your stack in this situation can never be the best option.

    That's not really true, if you think raising 40% stack gets more folds then going all in, then 40% stack is the better option obv...

    I don't think it really matters what you do darb, just double check the nash and see if the ranges are accurate, if they are then take it if it's +EV. If it's basically breakeven (which I have a hunch it might be) I don't mind giving it a pass. A lot of these shove spots aren't really hands you can post and get opinions on, they're just math spots... if you're deciding whether to raise half stack or shove, usually I'd raise less than all-in in situations where you have very little fold equity and it's possible that the blinds won't be playing close attention (sundays vs. regs). Here it's hard to say how randoms are going to perceive it, but I feel like it might be slightly better than shoving.

    To the others - we're not reeeally shoving 18BB here, only 2 people have us covered and the rest are like 15BB and less. It's a mistake to treat your shoving range here the same as if everyone had 18BB.
  • Unless you have a bunch of nits at the table...I don't see how this can be a plus ev shove. In addition if your opponents are really that nitty, min-raise folding is a better option vs some of those stacks. For the other stacks that you have to call off vs, it really doesn't make a huge difference as no one expects to fold. So how can raising 40% of your stack here be your BEST option. If he raises half the amount he did...don't we end up with the same result most of the time....and possibly allows us to fold vs 2 big stack all ins?
  • heres the nash with all player have 18bbs stack 10% antes and 1 player whos a little shorter.

    HoldemResources.net: Beta ICM Nash Calculator

    JTs is going to be a little more profitable because people will fold a little more...

    plus the regs are going to put my range on med/strong hands like aq and 99
  • Vekked wrote: »
    That's not really true, if you think raising 40% stack gets more folds then going all in, then 40% stack is the better option obv...
    ya and i think it does, i think it makes regs put me on aq ish type hands, where as they know they always have fold equity when i min raise here. some rec players will fold weaker hands they might jam or flat.
    Vekked wrote: »
    I don't think it really matters what you do darb, just double check the nash and see if the ranges are accurate, if they are then take it if it's +EV. If it's basically breakeven (which I have a hunch it might be) I don't mind giving it a pass.
    i think its prob a little better than break even but i don't do it all the time..
    Vekked wrote: »
    A lot of these shove spots aren't really hands you can post and get opinions on, they're just math spots... if you're deciding whether to raise half stack or shove, usually I'd raise less than all-in in situations where you have very little fold equity and it's possible that the blinds won't be playing close attention (sundays vs. regs). Here it's hard to say how randoms are going to perceive it, but I feel like it might be slightly better than shoving.
    ya but ....wait what........really???
  • darbday wrote: »
    heres the nash with all player have 18bbs stack 10% antes and 1 player whos a little shorter.

    HoldemResources.net: Beta ICM Nash Calculator

    JTs is going to be a little more profitable because people will fold a little more...

    plus the regs are going to put my range on med/strong hands like aq and 99

    It's a bit more profitable nash-wise but in reality there's a lot of tables it's not going to be profitable, nash is assigning about the tightest range I would ever expect people to have.
Sign In or Register to comment.